F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[BoldonLad]

Two different sports aren't they? You see women's basketball teams but no men's netball teams.

twas a jest

 

[winjim]

I assumed it was a joke. But the whole premise of why this old joke is funny - 'I'm so crap at sports even a woman could beat me' - shows that we all know about male sports advantage, even if we pretend we don't or think it should be ignored in the name of inclusivity.

The premise of the joke was that it's not like any old bloke could simply rock up and beat a top female athlete.

 

[AuroraSaab]

But a male who was nationally 400th can rock up and beat the elite females to be 1st nationally? So it's more a reality in 2022 than an exaggerated humorous scenario really isn't it?

 

[icowden]

I assumed it was a joke. But the whole premise of why this old joke is funny - 'I'm so crap at sports even a woman could beat me' - shows that we all know about male sports advantage, even if we pretend we don't or think it should be ignored in the name of inclusivity.

A related anecdote - last time we were on the Isle of Wight, my family (well my children) decided to hold a mock Olympics as we had access to a nice long garden (cottages converted from old station waiting rooms at Whitwell). One of the events was a "100 metres" (not actually 100 metres) run with heats. Naturally the Grandparents and children got eliminated first. The final line-up was me (5'6" 15 stone and not particularly fit. certainly not a runner), my BiL (6'2" iron man competitor), my wife (5'6" runner) and my sister in law (5'7" not an exercise fanatic).

To my wife's chagrin and dismay, I came second behind the BiL who left us all in the dust. She then insisted on a rematch on the basis that she is a runner and should be able to beat me easily. She couldn't. Over a short distance, that tiny bit of testosterone that has not been drained from me, made the difference when man vs woman.

 

[icowden]

The premise of the joke was that it's not like any old bloke could simply rock up and beat a top female athlete.

That's true, but probably more blokes than you think would be able to beat a top female athlete actually could beat a top female athlete.

I read this that kind of illustrates the issue as well:
https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/trans-athletes-win-boys-sports

But the idea that trans boys cannot compete with cis boys on the field is demonstrably false. Mosier making Team USA means that he is literally one of the best in his category of all the men in the country. And Bailar, who competed against men while swimming for Harvard University, was ranked 443 out of all 2,983 Division I male swimmers — meaning he beat 85% of the men he swam against. “The narrative that we’re not capable of [being up there with cis men] at worst excludes trans boys from even stepping into sport,” he says. “And at best, makes them doubt themselves. No matter how you look at it, that narrative is toxic.”

When people ask Bailar how he plans to beat cis men, “It’s very simple,” he says. “The answer is, I did.”

(slightly odd title as none of the trans athletes won boys sports, they just competed)

So yes, Bailar can beat 85% of the men he swam against. He's in no danger of beating the top 5% though. Whereas the other way around...

 

[AuroraSaab]

Over a short distance, that tiny bit of testosterone that has not been drained from me, made the difference when man vs woman.

It's the bigger lungs, heart, different muscle structure, that comes from male puberty as well as testosterone. Musician Zuby routinely posts videos of himself breaking the Women's UK weight lifting records and he's not even training full time.

 

[Mr Celine]

Thing is, Jim, you wouldn't. Against a woman cyclist of the same ability and age, and actually against women who are fitter and younger, you would likely win every time because of the advantages your male body provides (ultra long distance endurance events being the exception). How else do you explain middle aged Laurel Hubbard getting in an Olympic final with 20 - 25 year olds? Or overweight and clearly unfit Veronica Ivy succeeding in Masters events? Or Lia Thomas going from 400th nationally to 1st?

I think you have a blindspot on this issue because, like most people, you don't want to be seen as unkind.

The first time I tried Strava I'd borrowed Mrs Celine's phone and used her account.

She got three QOMs without me trying too hard.

 

[Milkfloat]

The first time I tried Strava I'd borrowed Mrs Celine's phone and used her account.

She got three QOMs without me trying too hard.

Ohh, a segue into under representation of women in cycling.

 

[AndyRM]

It's the bigger lungs, heart, different muscle structure, that comes from male puberty as well as testosterone. Musician Zuby routinely posts videos of himself breaking the Women's UK weight lifting records and he's not even training full time.

Zuby. Seriously?

 

[AuroraSaab]

What's your point, Andy? My point is a keen amateur male weight lifter can routinely break the Women's UK record because the performance gap M v F is about 40% in such events.

 

[Rusty Nails]

I fear that this argument (sport) is a circle that can never be squared to everyone's satisfaction.
At the heart of it is equality and fairness between the sexes/genders, but, in terms of most physical performance sports there cannot be both equality and fairness...it has to be one or the other. Fairness to trans women competitors is usually going to lead to unfairness to CIS women competitors.
Because of this I believe this is an issue that can and should only be decided by those affected, women trans and CIS, and men should not be part of the decision-making, even though they are entitled to an opinion and to contribute to the debate.

 

[winjim]

I fear that this argument (sport) is a circle that can never be squared to everyone's satisfaction.
At the heart of it is equality and fairness between the sexes/genders, but, in terms of most physical performance sports there cannot be both equality and fairness...it has to be one or the other. Fairness to trans women competitors is usually going to lead to unfairness to CIS women competitors.
Because of this I believe this is an issue that can and should only be decided by those affected, women trans and CIS, and men should not be part of the decision-making, even though they are entitled to an opinion and to contribute to the debate.

They did. They even got together and organised a bike race yet somehow everyone's still pissed off.

 

[icowden]

They did. They even got together and organised a bike race yet somehow everyone's still pissed off.

Because it seems pointless given that the "lightning event" was easily won by two trans women. Can you not see that that might be a little disheartening for the cis women?

 

[winjim]

Because it seems pointless given that the "lightning event" was easily won by two trans women. Can you not see that that might be a little disheartening for the cis women?

A cis woman won it last year.

I have no idea what this has to do with Suella Braverman though.

 

[Deleted member 28]

And I'm fairly open about my white cis-het able bodied male privilege so being referred to as 'just another bloke' is a bit, well, you know.

What are you then?

A bloke, that unless you at some time encounter unfair treatment towards a loved one will never really be impacted.

I know you have young kids but are any of them girls, the earlier photo could have been any gender given your outlook, and if so would you feel aggrieved if a male born athelete knocked your daughter off the podium or shared the same shithouse?

Just asking like.