F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

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theclaud

Reading around the chip
Thing is, we have a lot of 'Why can't we all get along?' and nobody offering any solutions, or even willing to admit there are conflicts in rights on this issue.

I don't think you're the enemy, Claude. I think we agree on what the problem is - prescribed gender roles. My impression is that you think the solution is to expand the concept of gender and blur gender roles, whereas I think it is to do away with gender altogether and only keep differences between men and women in those areas where biological sex matters.

Not really. The problem, for me (possibly what Andy is getting at too?) is that airy pronouncements of a wish to abolish gender don't sound very convincing alongside a) the absence of any serious understanding of how gender works (it's not reducible to the persistence of stereotypes), or b) the endorsement or support of policies or political actors which are obviously gender-conservative, conservative more generally, and sometimes aligned with right-wing or authoritarian interests. The obsession with sex-segregated toilets, for example, depends on the need to read biological/anatomical sex from outward appearance, whereas any kind of authentic gender abolitionism would support practices that would tend to make this less reliable. Hopefully I don't even need to go into what this means in terms of people feeling entitled to police access to basic facilities and services and the consequences of that for those whose appearance doesn't conform to expectations.
 
Without stereotypes there is no gender. When you declare your gender identity, what you identifying with if not stereotypes?

It's perfectly possible to agree with people on one issue and disagree with them on everything else. It might even be that the reasons you have for agreeing are very different. This demand for ideological purity is one reason the left are floundering on this issue.

Preserving single sex spaces doesn't rely on making guesses about someone's sex from their clothes. It relies on the social contract - the understanding that people will use the facilities appropriate to their sex. This has worked pretty well for a hundred years. Really though, toilets are not the main issue. It's the ideology that gender should override sex in every situation from changing rooms and prisons, to data collection and calling your male rapist 'she'.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Gender is a social construction. It relies on stereotypes of femininity and masculinity.
Sex is biology. It relies on material realism.

Sex is why women are oppressed. Gender is how they are oppressed. The conflation of 'gender' and 'sex' erases the material reality of women's experiences, whose challenges in life are based on their sex not on the nebulous concept of what their gender identity might or might not be.

Why wouldn't anybody want to do away with stereotypes and allow people to express themselves however they wish, acknowledging differences between the sexes only when it is relevant? That's what gender critical feminists want.

The word "stereotype" has occurred a lot, in this thread, indeed, it seems to occur frequently in this forum.

I have only quoted @AuroraSaab's post, because, on a quick scan, I found it as an example, I am not expressing any opinion as to the views expressed.

I am simply somewhat mystified by the frequent use of the word "stereotype", as if stereotypes are "bad". Isn't it simply a shorthand way of saying most (but not all) of any group exhibit a certain characteristic? (ie, in the typical distribution bell curve sense). It's use is not confined to gender characteristics. So, for example, a stereotypical British person would not be a speaker of more than one language. It does not mean that all, British people speak only one language.

Do I miss-understand?
 

Rusty Nails

Country Member
The word "stereotype" has occurred a lot, in this thread, indeed, it seems to occur frequently in this forum.

I have only quoted @AuroraSaab's post, because, on a quick scan, I found it as an example, I am not expressing any opinion as to the views expressed.

I am simply somewhat mystified by the frequent use of the word "stereotype", as if stereotypes are "bad". Isn't it simply a shorthand way of saying most (but not all) of any group exhibit a certain characteristic? (ie, in the typical distribution bell curve sense). It's use is not confined to gender characteristics. So, for example, a stereotypical British person would not be a speaker of more than one language. It does not mean that all, British people speak only one language.

Do I miss-understand?

Yes.

A stereotype is not an average, or norm but an image or idea.

Here is one definition:

a set idea that people have about what someone or something is like, especially an idea that is wrong:
racial/sexual stereotypes
He doesn't conform to/fit/fill the national stereotype of a Frenchman.
The characters in the book are just stereotypes.
 

Fab Foodie

Legendary Member
The word "stereotype" has occurred a lot, in this thread, indeed, it seems to occur frequently in this forum.

I have only quoted @AuroraSaab's post, because, on a quick scan, I found it as an example, I am not expressing any opinion as to the views expressed.

I am simply somewhat mystified by the frequent use of the word "stereotype", as if stereotypes are "bad". Isn't it simply a shorthand way of saying most (but not all) of any group exhibit a certain characteristic? (ie, in the typical distribution bell curve sense). It's use is not confined to gender characteristics. So, for example, a stereotypical British person would not be a speaker of more than one language. It does not mean that all, British people speak only one language.

Do I miss-understand?

Tell you what Bolders, for asking such a question on this thread you're a braverman than I....
 

PaulB

Active Member
Now it isn't just the tories, but they do seem to relish applying these strategies.... (the grammar isn't perfect throughout but it's eye-opening).

Noam Chomsky - "10 strategies of manipulation" by the media.

Renowned critic and MIT linguist Noam Chomsky, one of the classic voices of intellectual dissent in the last decade, has compiled a list of the ten most common and effective strategies resorted to by the agendas “hidden” to establish a manipulation of thepopulation through the media.
Historically the media have proven highly efficient to mold public opinion. Thanks to the media paraphernalia and propaganda, have been created or destroyed social movements, justified wars, tempered financial crisis, spurred on some other ideological currents, and even given the phenomenon of media as producers of reality within the collective psyche.
But how to detect the most common strategies for understanding these psychosocial tools which, surely, we participate? Fortunately Chomsky has been given the task of synthesizing and expose these practices, some more obvious and more sophisticated, but apparently all equally effective and, from a certain point of view, demeaning. Encourage stupidity, promote a sense of guilt, promote distraction, or construct artificial problems and then magically, solve them, are just some of these tactics.
1. The strategy of distraction
The primary element of social control is the strategy of distraction which is to divert public attention from important issues and changes determined by the political and economic elites, by the technique of flood or flooding continuous distractions and insignificant information. distraction strategy is also essential to prevent the public interest in the essential knowledge in the area of the science, economics, psychology, neurobiology and cybernetics.“Maintaining public attention diverted away from the real social problems, captivated bymatters of no real importance. Keep the public busy, busy, busy, no time to think, back tofarm and other animals (quote from text Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
2. Create problems, then offer solutions
This method is also called “problem -reaction- solution. “It creates a problem, a “situation”referred to cause some reaction in the audience, so this is the principal of the steps that you want to accept. For example: let it unfold and intensify urban violence, or arrange for bloody attacks in order that the public is the applicant’s security laws and policies to the detriment offreedom. Or: create an economic crisis to accept as a necessary evil retreat of social rights and the dismantling of public services.
3. The gradual strategy
acceptance to an unacceptable degree, just apply it gradually, dropper, for consecutive years. That is how they radically new socioeconomic conditions ( neoliberalism ) were imposed during the 1980s and 1990s: the minimal state, privatization, precariousness, flexibility, massive unemployment, wages, and do not guarantee a decent income, so many changes that have brought about a revolution if they had been applied once.
4. The strategy of deferring
Another way to accept an unpopular decision is to present it as “painful and necessary”,gaining public acceptance, at the time for future application. It is easier to accept that a future sacrifice of immediate slaughter. First, because the effort is not used immediately. Then, because the public, masses, is always the tendency to expect naively that “everything will be better tomorrow” and that the sacrifice required may be avoided. This gives the public moretime to get used to the idea of change and accept it with resignation when the time comes.
5. Go to the public as a little child
Most of the advertising to the general public uses speech, argument, people and particularly
children’s intonation, often close to the weakness, as if the viewer were a little child or amentally deficient. The harder one tries to deceive the viewer look, the more it tends to adopta tone infantilising. Why? “If one goes to a person as if she had the age of 12 years or less,then, because of suggestion, she tends with a certain probability that a response or reaction also devoid of a critical sense as a person 12 years or younger (see Silent Weapons for QuietWar ).”
6. Use the emotional side more than the reflection
Making use of the emotional aspect is a classic technique for causing a short circuit on rational analysis , and finally to the critical sense of the individual. Furthermore, the use of emotional register to open the door to the unconscious for implantation or grafting ideas ,desires, fears and anxieties , compulsions, or induce behaviors ...
7. Keep the public in ignorance and mediocrity
Making the public incapable of understanding the technologies and methods used to controland enslavement. “The quality of education given to the lower social classes must be the poorand mediocre as possible so that the gap of ignorance it plans among the lower classes andupper classes is and remains impossible to attain for the lower classes (See ‘ Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
8. To encourage the public to be complacent with mediocrity
Promote the public to believe that the fact is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated...
9. Self-blame Strengthen
To let individual blame for their misfortune, because of the failure of their intelligence, their abilities, or their efforts. So, instead of rebelling against the economic system, the individual autodesvalida and guilt, which creates a depression, one of whose effects is to inhibit its action. And, without action, there is no revolution!
10. Getting to know the individuals better than they know themselves
Over the past 50 years, advances of accelerated science has generated a growing gap between public knowledge and those owned and operated by dominant elites. Thanks tobiology, neurobiology and applied psychology, the “system” has enjoyed a sophisticatedunderstanding of human beings, both physically and psychologically. The system has gotten better acquainted with the common man more than he knows himself. This means that, in most cases, the system exerts greater control and great power over individuals, greater than that of individuals about themselves.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Now it isn't just the tories, but they do seem to relish applying these strategies.... (the grammar isn't perfect throughout but it's eye-opening).

Noam Chomsky - "10 strategies of manipulation" by the media.

Renowned critic and MIT linguist Noam Chomsky, one of the classic voices of intellectual dissent in the last decade, has compiled a list of the ten most common and effective strategies resorted to by the agendas “hidden” to establish a manipulation of thepopulation through the media.
Historically the media have proven highly efficient to mold public opinion. Thanks to the media paraphernalia and propaganda, have been created or destroyed social movements, justified wars, tempered financial crisis, spurred on some other ideological currents, and even given the phenomenon of media as producers of reality within the collective psyche.
But how to detect the most common strategies for understanding these psychosocial tools which, surely, we participate? Fortunately Chomsky has been given the task of synthesizing and expose these practices, some more obvious and more sophisticated, but apparently all equally effective and, from a certain point of view, demeaning. Encourage stupidity, promote a sense of guilt, promote distraction, or construct artificial problems and then magically, solve them, are just some of these tactics.
1. The strategy of distraction
The primary element of social control is the strategy of distraction which is to divert public attention from important issues and changes determined by the political and economic elites, by the technique of flood or flooding continuous distractions and insignificant information. distraction strategy is also essential to prevent the public interest in the essential knowledge in the area of the science, economics, psychology, neurobiology and cybernetics.“Maintaining public attention diverted away from the real social problems, captivated bymatters of no real importance. Keep the public busy, busy, busy, no time to think, back tofarm and other animals (quote from text Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
2. Create problems, then offer solutions
This method is also called “problem -reaction- solution. “It creates a problem, a “situation”referred to cause some reaction in the audience, so this is the principal of the steps that you want to accept. For example: let it unfold and intensify urban violence, or arrange for bloody attacks in order that the public is the applicant’s security laws and policies to the detriment offreedom. Or: create an economic crisis to accept as a necessary evil retreat of social rights and the dismantling of public services.
3. The gradual strategy
acceptance to an unacceptable degree, just apply it gradually, dropper, for consecutive years. That is how they radically new socioeconomic conditions ( neoliberalism ) were imposed during the 1980s and 1990s: the minimal state, privatization, precariousness, flexibility, massive unemployment, wages, and do not guarantee a decent income, so many changes that have brought about a revolution if they had been applied once.
4. The strategy of deferring
Another way to accept an unpopular decision is to present it as “painful and necessary”,gaining public acceptance, at the time for future application. It is easier to accept that a future sacrifice of immediate slaughter. First, because the effort is not used immediately. Then, because the public, masses, is always the tendency to expect naively that “everything will be better tomorrow” and that the sacrifice required may be avoided. This gives the public moretime to get used to the idea of change and accept it with resignation when the time comes.
5. Go to the public as a little child
Most of the advertising to the general public uses speech, argument, people and particularly
children’s intonation, often close to the weakness, as if the viewer were a little child or amentally deficient. The harder one tries to deceive the viewer look, the more it tends to adopta tone infantilising. Why? “If one goes to a person as if she had the age of 12 years or less,then, because of suggestion, she tends with a certain probability that a response or reaction also devoid of a critical sense as a person 12 years or younger (see Silent Weapons for QuietWar ).”
6. Use the emotional side more than the reflection
Making use of the emotional aspect is a classic technique for causing a short circuit on rational analysis , and finally to the critical sense of the individual. Furthermore, the use of emotional register to open the door to the unconscious for implantation or grafting ideas ,desires, fears and anxieties , compulsions, or induce behaviors ...
7. Keep the public in ignorance and mediocrity
Making the public incapable of understanding the technologies and methods used to controland enslavement. “The quality of education given to the lower social classes must be the poorand mediocre as possible so that the gap of ignorance it plans among the lower classes andupper classes is and remains impossible to attain for the lower classes (See ‘ Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
8. To encourage the public to be complacent with mediocrity
Promote the public to believe that the fact is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated...
9. Self-blame Strengthen
To let individual blame for their misfortune, because of the failure of their intelligence, their abilities, or their efforts. So, instead of rebelling against the economic system, the individual autodesvalida and guilt, which creates a depression, one of whose effects is to inhibit its action. And, without action, there is no revolution!
10. Getting to know the individuals better than they know themselves
Over the past 50 years, advances of accelerated science has generated a growing gap between public knowledge and those owned and operated by dominant elites. Thanks tobiology, neurobiology and applied psychology, the “system” has enjoyed a sophisticatedunderstanding of human beings, both physically and psychologically. The system has gotten better acquainted with the common man more than he knows himself. This means that, in most cases, the system exerts greater control and great power over individuals, greater than that of individuals about themselves.

What a good job there are some people immune to these techniques, we who are susceptible must be so grateful.
 

Fab Foodie

Legendary Member
Now it isn't just the tories, but they do seem to relish applying these strategies.... (the grammar isn't perfect throughout but it's eye-opening).

Noam Chomsky - "10 strategies of manipulation" by the media.

Renowned critic and MIT linguist Noam Chomsky, one of the classic voices of intellectual dissent in the last decade, has compiled a list of the ten most common and effective strategies resorted to by the agendas “hidden” to establish a manipulation of thepopulation through the media.
Historically the media have proven highly efficient to mold public opinion. Thanks to the media paraphernalia and propaganda, have been created or destroyed social movements, justified wars, tempered financial crisis, spurred on some other ideological currents, and even given the phenomenon of media as producers of reality within the collective psyche.
But how to detect the most common strategies for understanding these psychosocial tools which, surely, we participate? Fortunately Chomsky has been given the task of synthesizing and expose these practices, some more obvious and more sophisticated, but apparently all equally effective and, from a certain point of view, demeaning. Encourage stupidity, promote a sense of guilt, promote distraction, or construct artificial problems and then magically, solve them, are just some of these tactics.
1. The strategy of distraction
The primary element of social control is the strategy of distraction which is to divert public attention from important issues and changes determined by the political and economic elites, by the technique of flood or flooding continuous distractions and insignificant information. distraction strategy is also essential to prevent the public interest in the essential knowledge in the area of the science, economics, psychology, neurobiology and cybernetics.“Maintaining public attention diverted away from the real social problems, captivated bymatters of no real importance. Keep the public busy, busy, busy, no time to think, back tofarm and other animals (quote from text Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
2. Create problems, then offer solutions
This method is also called “problem -reaction- solution. “It creates a problem, a “situation”referred to cause some reaction in the audience, so this is the principal of the steps that you want to accept. For example: let it unfold and intensify urban violence, or arrange for bloody attacks in order that the public is the applicant’s security laws and policies to the detriment offreedom. Or: create an economic crisis to accept as a necessary evil retreat of social rights and the dismantling of public services.
3. The gradual strategy
acceptance to an unacceptable degree, just apply it gradually, dropper, for consecutive years. That is how they radically new socioeconomic conditions ( neoliberalism ) were imposed during the 1980s and 1990s: the minimal state, privatization, precariousness, flexibility, massive unemployment, wages, and do not guarantee a decent income, so many changes that have brought about a revolution if they had been applied once.
4. The strategy of deferring
Another way to accept an unpopular decision is to present it as “painful and necessary”,gaining public acceptance, at the time for future application. It is easier to accept that a future sacrifice of immediate slaughter. First, because the effort is not used immediately. Then, because the public, masses, is always the tendency to expect naively that “everything will be better tomorrow” and that the sacrifice required may be avoided. This gives the public moretime to get used to the idea of change and accept it with resignation when the time comes.
5. Go to the public as a little child
Most of the advertising to the general public uses speech, argument, people and particularly
children’s intonation, often close to the weakness, as if the viewer were a little child or amentally deficient. The harder one tries to deceive the viewer look, the more it tends to adopta tone infantilising. Why? “If one goes to a person as if she had the age of 12 years or less,then, because of suggestion, she tends with a certain probability that a response or reaction also devoid of a critical sense as a person 12 years or younger (see Silent Weapons for QuietWar ).”
6. Use the emotional side more than the reflection
Making use of the emotional aspect is a classic technique for causing a short circuit on rational analysis , and finally to the critical sense of the individual. Furthermore, the use of emotional register to open the door to the unconscious for implantation or grafting ideas ,desires, fears and anxieties , compulsions, or induce behaviors ...
7. Keep the public in ignorance and mediocrity
Making the public incapable of understanding the technologies and methods used to controland enslavement. “The quality of education given to the lower social classes must be the poorand mediocre as possible so that the gap of ignorance it plans among the lower classes andupper classes is and remains impossible to attain for the lower classes (See ‘ Silent Weapons for Quiet War ).”
8. To encourage the public to be complacent with mediocrity
Promote the public to believe that the fact is fashionable to be stupid, vulgar and uneducated...
9. Self-blame Strengthen
To let individual blame for their misfortune, because of the failure of their intelligence, their abilities, or their efforts. So, instead of rebelling against the economic system, the individual autodesvalida and guilt, which creates a depression, one of whose effects is to inhibit its action. And, without action, there is no revolution!
10. Getting to know the individuals better than they know themselves
Over the past 50 years, advances of accelerated science has generated a growing gap between public knowledge and those owned and operated by dominant elites. Thanks tobiology, neurobiology and applied psychology, the “system” has enjoyed a sophisticatedunderstanding of human beings, both physically and psychologically. The system has gotten better acquainted with the common man more than he knows himself. This means that, in most cases, the system exerts greater control and great power over individuals, greater than that of individuals about themselves.

11. If you're politically on the right lie like fark because the media will sell it for you as truth....
 

mudsticks

Squire
Yes.

A stereotype is not an average, or norm but an image or idea.

Here is one definition:

a set idea that people have about what someone or something is like, especially an idea that is wrong:
racial/sexual stereotypes
He doesn't conform to/fit/fill the national stereotype of a Frenchman.
The characters in the book are just stereotypes.

We could create a 'stereotype' of the older guy unable to use the dictionary search function for himself.

But that would clearly be very unfair...

:angel:
11. If you're politically on the right lie like fark because the media will sell it for you as truth....
To be fair I think everyone is pretty much susceptible to a lie they want to hear.

Trouble is all that introspection, self checking of biasses etc takes time..

Meanwhile the 'wrong uns' have made off with the spoils..

And we're onto the next distraction..

:angry:
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Yes.

A stereotype is not an average, or norm but an image or idea.

Here is one definition:

a set idea that people have about what someone or something is like, especially an idea that is wrong:
racial/sexual stereotypes
He doesn't conform to/fit/fill the national stereotype of a Frenchman.
The characters in the book are just stereotypes.

Hmm... ok, that is pretty much what I thought it meant, but...

1. from that definition, the idea doesn't have to be wrong

2. even with an average, or, norm, it is quite conceivable that none of the sampled instances actually match the average, or, norm

3. conversely, it is quite possible that an individual instance does match the average, or, norm, or, even stereotype

But, I get the way the word is being used here (ie in this forum), thank you for your input.
 
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