F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman

[BoldonLad]

We could create a 'stereotype' of the older guy unable to use the dictionary search function for himself.

But that would clearly be very unfair...



To be fair I think everyone is pretty much susceptible to a lie they want to hear.

Trouble is all that introspection, self checking of biasses etc takes time..

Meanwhile the 'wrong uns' have made off with the spoils..

And we're onto the next distraction..

Well, you could, but....

a person such as yourself would not stoop so low... I mean, that would make you as bad as @shep, wouldn't it?

plus, for what it is worth, I did look it up, I may well be an old fart, but, I can use Google.

 

[icowden]

1. from that definition, the idea doesn't have to be wrong

Of course not. And stereotypes can (and often are used) for comedy - sometime positively and sometimes negatively. For example in 70s and 80s comedy particularly you have the stereotype of the French onion seller.

Where it become invidious is when it is used to disenfranchise, and sometimes in a way that reinforces inequality. Hence the newspaper articles about Primark's ranges for girls vs boys reinforcing gender stereotypes such that boys have shirts saying "you are limitless" and that they could "make the rules", whilst girls are to "be kind", "keep on smiling" and to be "always perfect".

This is where @themanwhohasitall is a clever account. Just take a newspaper article, tweet or magazine topic and switch the gender and suddenly (if you are male) you see how ridiculous the stereotyped message is.

 

[mudsticks]

Well, you could, but....

a person such as yourself would not stoop so low... I mean, that would make you as bad as @shep, wouldn't it?

plus, for what it is worth, I did look it up, I may well be an old fart, but, I can use Google.

Well that's exactly why we wouldn't do such a tediously predictable thing..

But whaddya mean "As bad as Shep"

That's rather disloyal, I mean where would 'us lot' be without his 'stands to reason' gammonery to foil all our left leaning wokery

We done on the research front btw, vocabulary expansion its a wondrous thing, at any age

 

[theclaud]

Without stereotypes there is no gender. When you declare your gender identity, what you identifying with if not stereotypes?

It's perfectly possible to agree with people on one issue and disagree with them on everything else. It might even be that the reasons you have for agreeing are very different. This demand for ideological purity is one reason the left are floundering on this issue.

Preserving single sex spaces doesn't rely on making guesses about someone's sex from their clothes. It relies on the social contract - the understanding that people will use the facilities appropriate to their sex. This has worked pretty well for a hundred years. Really though, toilets are not the main issue. It's the ideology that gender should override sex in every situation from changing rooms and prisons, to data collection and calling your male rapist 'she'.

Ohio republicans are pushing a bill that will require genital inspection of children in the event that a school athlete is suspected of being trans. Under the guise of 'protecting' girls' sports. Just in case anyone can't get their head around why I'm giving Aurora a hard time about fuelling the trans panic culture wars.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ool-college-sports_n_629982d3e4b016c4eef7afb4

 

[AuroraSaab]

It says that in the event of confusion a note from a doctor will be required. That's not really a genital inspection. The chances of a school not knowing they had a transgender child is practically zero. I think it's you who is being a bit alarmist.

Do you think a 16 year old male bodied athlete has a strength and speed advantage over a female athlete of the same age? I do. None of the Women who ran in the Olympics 100m Final would even qualify for the final of the US Schools Boys 100m race. That's how big the speed gap is. You are cheering on the undermining of women's sports.

It was the Thundercrit cycle races this weekend. The male and female category have been replaced by 'Thunder' and 'Lightning' and trans athletes can ride in the category in which they feel most comfortable. 'Cis' males have to be in 'Thunder' though. First and Second in 'Lightning', ie formerly Women's, were Emily Bridges and Lily Chant, both biological males. At least the organisers have been honest and pretty much declared they are just giving up on Women's cycling altogether. No genital inspection required by the way.

 

[icowden]

It says that in the event of confusion a note from a doctor will be required. That's not really a genital inspection. The chances of a school not knowing they had a transgender child is practically zero. I think it's you who is being a bit alarmist.

It does say that

Under the measure, if a player’s sex is disputed, he or she will have to present a physician’s statement about “internal and external reproductive anatomy” and testosterone levels. Students would also have to show an analysis of genetic makeup.

Given that the doctor has to provide a statement about “internal and external reproductive anatomy” , that presumably means that the child has to be inspected by the doctor, no?

 

[winjim]

It was the Thundercrit cycle races this weekend. The male and female category have been replaced by 'Thunder' and 'Lightning' and trans athletes can ride in the category in which they feel most comfortable. 'Cis' males have to be in 'Thunder' though. First and Second in 'Lightning', ie formerly Women's, were Emily Bridges and Lily Chant, both biological males. At least the organisers have been honest and pretty much declared they are just giving up on Women's cycling altogether. No genital inspection required by the way.

Re Emily Bridges: We've discussed these issues at length before, and it proved impossible to do so without it descending into histrionics, so no need to start another thread.

Come on. Seriously.

https://thundercrit.com/official-statement/

 

[theclaud]

It says that in the event of confusion a note from a doctor will be required. That's not really a genital inspection. The chances of a school not knowing they had a transgender child is practically zero. I think it's you who is being a bit alarmist.

Do you think a 16 year old male bodied athlete has a strength and speed advantage over a female athlete of the same age? I do. None of the Women who ran in the Olympics 100m Final would even qualify for the final of the US Schools Boys 100m race. That's how big the speed gap is. You are cheering on the undermining of women's sports.

It was the Thundercrit cycle races this weekend. The male and female category have been replaced by 'Thunder' and 'Lightning' and trans athletes can ride in the category in which they feel most comfortable. 'Cis' males have to be in 'Thunder' though. First and Second in 'Lightning', ie formerly Women's, were Emily Bridges and Lily Chant, both biological males. At least the organisers have been honest and pretty much declared they are just giving up on Women's cycling altogether. No genital inspection required by the way.

What @icowden said. State-sanctioned invasive examination of schoolgirls' genitals by medics. Sexual assault of minors. Because someone thinks a girl on a team looks too strong, or not feminine enough, or just doesn't like her. And it's me cheering on the undermining of women's sports? Do you ever think that you just might have jumped the shark?

Yes I do think that 16-year-old are frequently likely to retain physical advantages arising from male puberty that could impact on the fairness of mixed-sex sports or trans-inclusive women's sports. No I don't think that justifies this grotesque licence to abuse girls in the name of gender policing (or even that it requires complete sex segregation of sporting activity at all ages and levels). I've been quite clear about that. As I said before, that there isn't necessarily a simple, one-size-fits-all solution doesn't mean we should be drawn into a moral panic which might lead us to accept all kinds of authoritarian abuses.

I saw something about that event on Twitter. It does look as if the majority of podium places went to people born male / assigned male at birth. Of course that is an equality issue if it's replicated everywhere. But as I understand it the event was a specifically a trans-inclusive one where they were trying out different categories of competition - meaning both that it attracted trans athletes and that competitors entered into it freely on the basis of the categories offered? I gather the third placed woman was supportive of the first and second placed trans athletes on this basis and has had to lock her Twitter account because she's getting so much grief about it.

 

[theclaud]

Oops cross-posted with @winjim!

 

[winjim]

What @icowden said. State-sanctioned invasive examination of schoolgirls' genitals by medics. Sexual assault of minors. Because someone thinks a girl on a team looks too strong, or not feminine enough, or just doesn't like her. And it's me cheering on the undermining of women's sports? Do you ever think that you just might have jumped the shark?

Yes I do think that 16-year-old are frequently likely to retain physical advantages arising from male puberty that could impact on the fairness of mixed-sex sports or trans-inclusive women's sports. No I don't think that justifies this grotesque licence to abuse girls in the name of gender policing (or even that it requires complete sex segregation of sporting activity at all ages and levels). I've been quite clear about that. As I said before, that there isn't necessarily a simple, one-size-fits-all solution doesn't mean we should be drawn into a moral panic which might lead us to accept all kinds of authoritarian abuses.

I saw something about that event on Twitter. It does look as if the majority of podium places went to people born male / assigned male at birth. Of course that is an equality issue if it's replicated everywhere. But as I understand it the event was a specifically a trans-inclusive one where they were trying out different categories of competition - meaning both that it attracted trans athletes and that competitors entered into it freely on the basis of the categories offered? I gather the third placed woman was supportive of the first and second placed trans athletes on this basis and has had to lock her Twitter account because she's getting so much grief about it.

 

[winjim]

Oops cross-posted with @winjim!

I'm just a bit baffled firstly because it's got nothing to do with Braverman and secondly because it's being brought up by the person who says we should stop bringing these things up. I mean look at post #3 of this thread and then another seven pages of dunking on trans people.

It is a complex and nuanced subject so if we're going to discuss it let's, but don't pretend like you don't want to and then proceed to drag it out when it's not even all that relevant to the thread.

 

[Milkfloat]

Further reading is the categorisation at https://thundercrit.com/race-categories/ To me it is not the answer as you can still claim miss-categorisation

Lightning Category
This category is for:

• Cis-women
• Non-binary people whose physical performance aligns with cis-women
• Trans men and women whose physical performance aligns most closely with cis-women

I don't know how close the races were but you could potentially argue that is 1st and 2nd won at a canter that they were in the wrong category.

Either way - it is a complicated situation with no obvious right or wrong that does not penalise one group or another.

 

[theclaud]

I'm just a bit baffled firstly because it's got nothing to do with Braverman and secondly because it's being brought up by the person who says we should stop bringing these things up. I mean look at post #3 of this thread and then another seven pages of dunking on trans people.

It is a complex and nuanced subject so if we're going to discuss it let's, but don't pretend like you don't want to and then proceed to drag it out when it's not even all that relevant to the thread.

Perhaps the 'don't' was a typo...

 

[AuroraSaab]

I am happy to discuss women's rights all day long, winjim, which is essentially what we are talking about. Strange that you think standing up for women equals 'dunking on trans people'. Yet again you're telling me that it's complex and nuanced and yet offering no solutions whatsoever. You're just another bloke asking women to be kind and budge up really.

Realistically what are the chances of a school not knowing who is a transgender student? Close to zero. A cheek swab test would be sufficient if there's any doubt. Your family doctor could confirm your sex from your medical records, no need for a genital check.

I'm seeing a lot of sympathy for males who want to play on the female team and not much sympathy for girls who are losing places, medals, and scholarships, or facing competing against someone that they know they can never beat, like Lia Thomas.

Yes, the woman who placed third to Emily Bridges and Lily Cant was ok with it. Perhaps the other women who got bumped down the results list feel differently. Regardless of Jo Smith's own opinion, female sports rights are not hers to give away and many female athletes are unhappy with the situation. Including Jane Page, who finished second to a transwoman in British Cycling’s downhill national series 2 weeks ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/off.ro...nsgender-riders-win-at-fort-william-10099?amp

There have been 3 previous threads that have in some part covered what we are covering here. I started none of them and made no postings on the third. I don't particularly want to cover the same ground but if people post stuff that I disagree with I am going to contribute.

 

[winjim]

I'm not offering solutions because I'm not at the moment involving myself in the discussion. I'm commenting on the way it's been handled in this particular thread which to me seems inappropriate and contradictory to the opinions expressed by you right at the very beginning.

Discussions aren't always about offering solutions anyway.