General Election 2024....

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AndyRM

Elder Goth
Says a lot that he's issuing an apology for not sticking around at some flag shagging event rather than lying (or at least being misleading) about Labour's tax plans.

Talk about warped priorities.

I listened to a bit of 5 Live breakfast and they had a phone in about this. The number of people getting worked up about him being there in the first place, leaving early and the apology (or a combination of all three) was weird.

I was tempted to get in touch and point out that in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter but cleaning the cats' litter tray represented a better use of my time.
 

matticus

Guru
Of course - and that's the point. There is no real investment in state schools, and if a state school dares to make an investment in a big infrastructure project it's immediately portrayed as frivolous spending.

<snip>

We need state schools to be funded properly in every respect before we can entice people away from private schools.
I totally agree with most of your point. But the closing sentence seems unfounded.
It seems likely that as parents stop using private schools, they will support better funding of the state sector (whether as voters or as politicians).
 

icowden

Legendary Member
I totally agree with most of your point. But the closing sentence seems unfounded.
It seems likely that as parents stop using private schools, they will support better funding of the state sector (whether as voters or as politicians).
That's because you believe (I presume) that ending the VAT exemption will cause parents to stop using private schools. It won't. It will only have the effect of disrupting the education of some children at private schools whose parents are not wealthy but have made great sacrifice for them to go there, or of making it harder for those parents to afford the fees. It will put additional pressure on the state sector and unfairly penalise children who need smaller, more focused settings as that provision is not available in the state sector.

Private schools are effectively now acting as paid special schools for a significant cohort of children. There is a significant cohort of children at my daughters school who have ASD, Mental health issues such as anxiety, anorexia, physical health issues such as Type 1 diabetes etc. Sometimes it is the only choice other than home schooling - which may not be a possibility if both parents have to work.

It is these children that increased costs will affect. Not the progeny of hedge fund managers and the super-rich.
 

albion

Guru
The NYT has the headline 'Donald Trump’s Mob Rule'.

I guess with Farages Reformed Conservatives we will get similar. Trump celebrates his 'henchmen' so maybe Farage, post election will assimilate similar.
 

matticus

Guru
Private schools are effectively now acting as paid special schools for a significant cohort of children.

I can see this could be a big issue. But there are other answers to that, and it's not surprising I didn't see those kids mentioned in this:

If I compare that with my daughters school it has:-

A heated indoor swimming pool, all weather pitch, sprint track, netball courts and two cross country tracks, a 370 seat professional theatre, a dance studio and a music suite, a chapel which doubles as a performance venue, a smaller performance room for lunch time concerts.

This means that students have full access to sport including swimming - which is a weekly activity for some years throughout the year as well as music, drama and dance. Hence children at private schools tend to be much fitter and healthier and all tend to have the opportunity for artistic output with the vast majority learning a musical instrument.

God forbid that children want to excel at sports or the performing arts in the state sector. The sport with the most elite participation from state school educated adults is football - and those kids didn't get there through football at school.
Perhaps you could specify if it's special needs you're worried about, or swimming pools and dance studios?
 
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Beebo

Veteran
I think Sunak is just digging a deep hole about D Day.
He’s just released an interview saying he decided not to attend the commemorations weeks ago!
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
I think Sunak is just digging a deep hole about D Day.
He’s just released an interview saying he decided not to attend the commemorations weeks ago!

Predictably, he's denying that.

I wonder if it'll be forgotten about by the weekend?
 

stowie

Active Member
That's because you believe (I presume) that ending the VAT exemption will cause parents to stop using private schools. It won't. It will only have the effect of disrupting the education of some children at private schools whose parents are not wealthy but have made great sacrifice for them to go there, or of making it harder for those parents to afford the fees. It will put additional pressure on the state sector and unfairly penalise children who need smaller, more focused settings as that provision is not available in the state sector.

Private schools are effectively now acting as paid special schools for a significant cohort of children. There is a significant cohort of children at my daughters school who have ASD, Mental health issues such as anxiety, anorexia, physical health issues such as Type 1 diabetes etc. Sometimes it is the only choice other than home schooling - which may not be a possibility if both parents have to work.

It is these children that increased costs will affect. Not the progeny of hedge fund managers and the super-rich.

I will take a random example of a small private school not too far away from where I live. It is not a world-renowned school - we aren't talking Eton here - it is probably a good example of an average private school.

Fees for yrs 7-13 are £8950 per term, or £26,850 per year. That excludes registration costs, one off fees, clubs, activities and many other sundries listed on their site as extra cost items.

Assuming tax at 40% then that would be £44,750 gross income required just to pay the fees. Even at 20% that is £33,562. Median working age household income in the UK in 2022 was £35,000 before benefits and tax.

Private schools are not the sole domain of the super-rich, but you aren't going to be able to afford going there if you are an average household for sure. This isn't a case of "making sacrifices" - scrapping the family holiday is very unlikely to even cover half of one terms fees. This is having a significant household income in the first place. Bear in mind a household income of £81k puts you in the top 5%, and after taxation, the modest fee paying school I used as an example above would be costing around 50% of the take-home pay before the schooling extras.

The point around special needs support is a good one. State funding has been woefully lacking, but I would argue from the above example that a parent of a child needing this care would not only need to be willing to sacrifice in order to pay the fees but be in a very high household income in the first place.

20% VAT on private schools in order to properly fund SEND and more general education in the state system seems a reasonable way to try to increase access to these provisions that is not reliant on the parents happening to be very high wage earners or independently wealthy.
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Equality in education will never be achieved whilst some parents are willing to encourage and support their off-spring while others expect the mysterious "them" to do it for them. True, the wealthy can buy even more advantage, but, even if that were eliminated, the playing field would not be level.

The discussions on here, over the months, only support this view (IMHO) ie some parents will always see their offspring as a special case, requiring more resources than the rest of the common herd.
 

multitool

Guest
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icowden

Legendary Member
I will take a random example of a small private school not too far away from where I live. It is not a world-renowned school - we aren't talking Eton here - it is probably a good example of an average private school. Fees for yrs 7-13 are £8950 per term, or £26,850 per year. That excludes registration costs, one off fees, clubs, activities and many other sundries listed on their site as extra cost items.
Fair example, but you haven't allowed for discounts, scholarship, bursaries etc.
Assuming tax at 40% then that would be £44,750 gross income required just to pay the fees. Even at 20% that is £33,562. Median working age household income in the UK in 2022 was £35,000 before benefits and tax.
Yep. So take the £33,562, that's a median wage. Between two people, one of your salaries can just about get one child through the school. If you are lucky you own a house and if you are looking at secondary (as most people do) you've probably been there for 5 to 10 years, and built up a little bit of equity that you can release. I'm not a multimillionaire. When my oldest child started school my wife was a primary school teacher and I was on a decent salary of around £50k but living in Surrey. We paid 65% of fees solely from remortgaging the house. By paying up front we got discounts, both kids have had scholarships all the way through and most of my wife's income goes on school fees and costs. My salary goes on mortgage and all the bills.

So yes, it's not doable for everyone, but certainly its doable for one child if both parents are working and middle income, generally speaking.

20% VAT on private schools in order to properly fund SEND and more general education in the state system seems a reasonable way to try to increase access to these provisions that is not reliant on the parents happening to be very high wage earners or independently wealthy.
I agree in principal but not if it adversely affects the education of those already in the system. That's penalising the children.
 

albion

Guru
The dodgiest Tory of them all asks Subak into strife a deal with Farage.
I suppose Farage might be desparate to win Clacton though cycnical me thinks money will work best.
 
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