Laurence Fox vs Mukhtar

[Ian H]

I'm sure they have, but why let that get in the way of some modern day excuses for bigotry.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

 

[mudsticks]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

I mean that even if there was a scholarly reinterpretation of texts (which might for instance say that in fact homosexuality was accepted) that wouldn't stop modern day haters from hating, nor prevent them using their version of religious doctrine to back up their prejudice..

 

[qigong chimp]

These penalties were under the mosaic law. This was given to the Jews only, and was never imposed on Gentiles.

It has been superceded by the new covenant (testament). The moral law continues - namely what is right or wrong, the law against stealing adultery greed etc, but the penalties, ceremonial and dietary law no longer apply. Hence accusations of hypocrisy regarding mixed fibres and eating shellfish are null and void.

Not true. The moral law covers this:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. ... If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. Leviticus

The Hebrew is unambiguous. When it was translated into Greek around 270 BC the expression lies with a male or beds a male is arsenokoites, except in verbal form, to bed a man.


The one word in question is arsenkoites, used twice in the NT. You cannot use the German translation, with which I am familiar(!) to ascertain the meanng. You have to go back to the Greek OT to get the derivation and meaning, this is the origin of the term.

The RSV 1946 edition, about which a film has been made but I'm not sure if released yet, translated it as homosexuals. The 1971 revised edition which I know well changed this to sexual perverts, which when it was published was in line with current usage in English, albeit not very exact. There is another word used together with arsenokoites, malakoi, meaning soft men, men who wear fine rainment, effeminate. Most modern standard versions translate the passage either as the effeminate and homosexuals, or just those who practise homosexuality, referring to the active and passive partners.

The thesis of the film that something nefarious went on with the first edition of the RSV won't stand scrutiny. I have no doubt though that the denizens of social media will unquestioningly accept it, and you will see tirades or the sort 'these FOOLS and BIGOTS don't even know the meaning of their own HOLY BOOK'!

And so it was, when Unkraut had ended these scribblings, that the people were sore underwhelmed at his teaching, for he taught them as one of the scribes, not as one having authority.

 

[Ian H]

I mean that even if there was a scholarly reinterpretation of texts (which might for instance say that in fact homosexuality was accepted) that wouldn't stop modern day haters from hating, nor prevent them using their version of religious doctrine to back up their prejudice..

It's more complex than that. Concepts relating to sexuality were various and rather less binary. The difficulties of deciding exactly what ancient texts mean gives the lie to Unkraut's simplistic readings. It's difficult enough trying to imagine the medieval mindset, let alone that of the Romans or Greeks.

 

[matticus]

I mean that even if there was a scholarly reinterpretation of texts (which might for instance say that in fact homosexuality was accepted) that wouldn't stop modern day haters from hating, nor prevent them using their version of religious doctrine to back up their prejudice..

Most of the haters aren't religious.

 

[mudsticks]

It's more complex than that. Concepts relating to sexuality were various and rather less binary. The difficulties of deciding exactly what ancient texts mean gives the lie to Unkraut's simplistic readings. It's difficult enough trying to imagine the medieval mindset, let alone that of the Romans or Greeks.

Of course .
We will always tend see things through the lens of our own times, and experiences.

It's fun / interesting to try to imagine how people of history thought.

But quite naturally what they left written down will only have come from a very small subset of generally priveleged, and by default what was deemed to be 'acceptable' at the time voices.


As a 'guide to morality' or how we should live now I'd not give much credence, to any if it.

I mean wasn't it Unkers on another thread telling how it was only the fear of the wrath of the big bad guy in the sky that was standing between him and his running off with a fresher juicier female companion.??

I mean I don't know if the current Mrs Unkers should know - maybe she already does..??
Maybe she careth not a jot..??

So many unanswered kwestions..

Anyhowup my almost guilty -not-quite-protestant -work ethic is putting in a fleeting appearance so I'd better skedaddle >>>

Most of the haters aren't religious.

Do you have stats for that??

 

[Ian H]

Do you have stats for that??

God knows.

 

[icowden]

The 10 commandments could be summed up in one word: respect. Respect for God, respect for your neighbour - his life, his possessions, his or your own family.

Unless he's gay and in a loving relationship.

 

[Ian H]

Of course .
We will always tend see things through the lens of our own times, and experiences.

It's fun / interesting to try to imagine how people of history thought.

But quite naturally what they left written down will only have come from a very small subset of generally priveleged, and by default what was deemed to be 'acceptable' at the time voices.

Even what is written down can be problematic. Here's a nice* summary - https://www.rwuc.org/2020/03/20/arsenokoitai/
*In its original meaning.

 

[matticus]

Do you have stats for that??

Do YOU?? Try google.

I do know that no religious folk I know have expressed homophobic opinions. Lots from non-believers.
And considering the stats for regular church-goers in the UK -vs- stats for homophobia, hate crime etc... just sayin' ...

 

[qigong chimp]

The 10 commandments could be summed up in one word: respect. Respect for God, respect for your neighbour - his life, his possessions, his or your own family.

Respect?

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye respect one another; as I have respected you, that ye also respect one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have respect one to another.

For God so respected the world that he gave...

Simon Peter interrupted, saying unto him, 'Strewth Lord, that sounds a bit... meagre, if you don't mind me saying. A thin gruel of property law, social constraint and deference may sustain the repressed English, but where's the love?"

 

[newfhouse]

Most of the haters aren't religious.

They've probably been touched by religion though.

 

[mudsticks]

And so it was, when Unkraut had ended these scribblings, that the people were sore underwhelmed at his teaching, for he taught them as one of the scribes, not as one having authority.

Almost implying that you'd be onboard if the whole thing were a touch more florid..

Even what is written down can be problematic. Here's a nice* summary - https://www.rwuc.org/2020/03/20/arsenokoitai/
*In its original meaning.

Interesting..

"Arsenokoitai" stop sniggering at the back.. 🙄

So basically it sounds more like a disapproval of abusive sexual activity.

Do YOU?? Try google.

I do know that no religious folk I know have expressed homophobic opinions. Lots from non-believers.
And considering the stats for regular church-goers in the UK -vs- stats for homophobia, hate crime etc... just sayin' ...

dO yOuR oWn rEseArch.. !!!

And ta for the anecdata about your aquaintaunce 👍🏼

They've probably been touched by religion though.

Where on the doll though.??

 

[Bazzer]

Do YOU?? Try google.

I do know that no religious folk I know have expressed homophobic opinions. Lots from non-believers.
And considering the stats for regular church-goers in the UK -vs- stats for homophobia, hate crime etc... just sayin' ...

You may be fortunate, or maybe where I live is less tolerant.
My wife thought the Methodist church she attends, (at the time one of two attended to by the same minister), was tolerant to all forms of diversity. Both within the parishioners and having had at one time, a lesbian minister and her partner resident in the manse.
A successor married heterosexual minister, decided a poll of church members should be taken, to decide whether or not same sex marriages should be permitted in the church. I can't remember whether this fed into the Methodist Conference of 2021, or was part of leaving ministers freedom of conscience whether or not to conduct same sex marriages. But I do recall my wife's feedback of the poll, and although it was a positive response, it was far from overwhelming.

 

[newfhouse]

Where on the doll though.??

ASJT.