Nurse murdered seven babies

[winjim]

She proved herself sane enough to stand trial. Fighting to do so before standing trial.

All reports, to date, say she did it because she could/liked playing god.

That's the thing about crazy people. They don't know they're crazy.

 

[multitool]

I sort of feel there must be, I can't fathom it otherwise. But I feel that about a lot of violent crime.

To fathom it, you'd have to think it was OK to do it. Not in the legal sense of OK, just OK within the bounds of what is acceptable to oneself.

Certainly, thinking she 'must be mad' makes it easier for the rest of us.

 

[BoldonLad]

......

A society that doesn't want to listen when people try to draw attention to what goes on in the NHS can't really complain when it escalates to the point of murder.

Everyone knew his patients were dropping like flies, that's why they called him Dr Death, and yet his patients were so outraged by the suggestion he was a killer they bounced the police out of the house for suggesting it. It's interesting just how far a good bedside manner and a few Christmas presents will get you.

Their careers of course, blow the whistle and that's your career down the drain.
All the thanks Steven Bolsin got for blowing the whistle on the Bristol baby scandal was to make himself unemployable in the UK, he had to emigrate to Australia to find work. The NHS spent £10 million trying to destroy Raj Mattu.

It isn't hindsight though, is it.

There's one NHS scandal after another after another, and the story plays out the same way every time. Another inquiry, the same old conclusions, the same platitudes, and then the report getting stuffed down the back of the filing cabinet whist they carry on with business as usual. As Roy Lilley said on Channel 4 News: "I could write the report now".

The complaint system is corrupt to the core, so if there's to be any change at all it'll have to come from the public, and as long as they stand on their doorsteps clapping and telling them what heroes they are, attacking anyone else who does otherwise, the NHS will have no reason to change whatsoever.

I was referring to the Jury, who, are a very small subset of "Society", not the NHS complaints system, which, clearly did not function.

 

[winjim]

To fathom it, you'd have to think it was OK to do it. Not in the legal sense of OK, just OK within the bounds of what is acceptable to oneself.

Certainly, thinking she 'must be mad' makes it easier for the rest of us.

Oh yeah, the legal position is irrelevant, it's not that which stops the rest of us doing similar.

 

[All uphill]

To fathom it, you'd have to think it was OK to do it. Not in the legal sense of OK, just OK within the bounds of what is acceptable to oneself.

Certainly, thinking she 'must be mad' makes it easier for the rest of us.

I strongly disagree with your first paragraph, and strongly agree with your second.

I sometimes think I can understand how a person gets to a situation where they feel it makes sense to them to do terrible things. That in no way makes it acceptable to do those things.

It's so much easier just to say that they are mad than to understand that many terrible people are not so very different from us.

 

[PK99]

I sort of feel there must be, I can't fathom it otherwise. But I feel that about a lot of violent crime.

It ties into the reason I don't like whole life tariffs. If there's a psychiatric element then there must be the possibility of therapy, of a 'cure' for want of a better word. And that means there's a chance of redemption, for forgiveness and rehabilitation. But a whole life sentence feels like taking that chance away, of giving up, and I don't want to be part of a society that does that. I want to feel that there's at least a possibility, even if it never comes to pass, of good winning over evil in the end.

Psychopathy is not treatable.

 

[AndyRM]

Psychopathy is not treatable.

It is. Not easily. But it can be.

 

[All uphill]

Psychopathy is not a clinical diagnostic term, I understand, more a commonly and loosely used term without precise medical meaning which could lead to a specific treatment.

 

[Pale Rider]

It is. Not easily. But it can be.

Whether a condition can be treated or not is largely irrelevant because the criminal milk has already been spilled.

For the system to make any sense, someone who murders seven babies (not to mention all the attempts) must qualify for the ultimate sanction.

If Letby doesn't who would?

Thus a whole life order was inevitable.

My view is such orders should not be over used.

At one time, you had to murder more than one person to get one, but that has now changed.

I think Letby brings the total to 71 prisoners serving such orders.

Still a relatively tiny number compared to the number of serving criminals, criminals in the general population, or the adult population of the UK.

 

[AndyRM]

Whether a condition can be treated or not is largely irrelevant because the criminal milk has already been spilled.

For the system to make any sense, someone who murders seven babies (not to mention all the attempts) must qualify for the ultimate sanction.

If Letby doesn't who would?

Thus a whole life order was inevitable.

My view is such orders should not be over used.

At one time, you had to murder more than one person to get one, but that has now changed.

I think Letby brings the total to 71 prisoners serving such orders.

Still a relatively tiny number compared to the number of serving criminals, criminals in the general population, or the adult population of the UK.

You're a remarkably verbose writer, for someone who claims to admire the succinct.

 

[Bromptonaut]

What happens if you're on a whole of life tariff and over time it becomes apparent you're so mentally ill that you cannot be managed in prison?

 

[Beebo]

What happens if you're on a whole of life tariff and over time it becomes apparent you're so mentally ill that you cannot be managed in prison?

That’s what happened to Ian Brady.
He was given a full life term, and spent 19 years in a normal prison before ending up in hospital.
I doubt any Home Secretary would ever agree to their release.

 

[BoldonLad]

That’s what happened to Ian Brady.
He was given a full life term, and spent 19 years in a normal prison before ending up in hospital.
I doubt any Home Secretary would ever agree to their release.

I think it is probably OK to release such individuals, provided, they are housed next door to the person who recommends the release, and, that person is held personally responsible for the released prisoner's actions.

 

[Bromptonaut]

I think it is probably OK to release such individuals, provided, they are housed next door to the person who recommends the release, and, that person is held personally responsible for the released prisoner's actions.

Has anybody realistically people as notorious as Brady, Sutcliffe, Fred or Rose West etc ever be released at all, never mind to live in the community. Hindley was the only one I recall with a serious campaign. Even if she'd had gold plated proof of reform no Home Secretary would have allowed a licence for her releases.

Was one of the Krays let out to die or is my memory playing tricks??

 

[BoldonLad]

Has anybody realistically people as notorious as Brady, Sutcliffe, Fred or Rose West etc ever be released at all, never mind to live in the community. Hindley was the only one I recall with a serious campaign. Even if she'd had gold plated proof of reform no Home Secretary would have allowed a licence for her releases.

Was one of the Krays let out to die or is my memory playing tricks??

You are right about Krays, Reggie was released on compassionate grounds, and died a couple of months later.

There have been instances of people being released into community, who have killed (and/or raped) again. I wasn't seriously advocating the release of individuals such as those you mention. But, those who would make such decisions, are unlikely to encounter the results personally.