Scandi noir....

[Hitchington]

I'm not sure that that is the point. The point is that it is easy to get into a mindset that "they" must be stupid / racist / gullible, and it's a slightly dangerous route to travel.

Sure, some of the probably are stupid / racist / gullible, but - a bit like the Brexit referendum, people tend to want to do what they think is best and if they are lied to and made promises that things can be made better, some people will just go for it regardless of common sense. There is a a phenomenon called the Abilene paradox whereby people choose the worst outcome for a group because individually they think it is the best option for everyone else.

People often want something different rather than the status quo.

The only thing that I can't reconcile is that people don't seem to be able to look at *who* is delivering the message / promises and decide whether or not that person is a shyster.

I am not, and never will compare voting to leave the EU to voting for a neo Nazi party.

I'm sure there were plenty of racist, gullible and stupid people voting to leave, just as I'm sure there were plenty of people who another reason to vote to leave

I think this is where Craig and the other one are getting confused. Where I say people who vote for neo Nazis are racist, stupid or gullible they think I mean people who don't vote for the left/remain are stupid, racist or gullible.

I'm not sure they're reading my posts properly.

But back to your post, I'm sure there are people who will vote a certain way because it causes harm to another group, as well as harming their group too. But that isn't borne out of any intellectual reasoning, in fact that person would have an impairment of emotional intelligence and lack, or deliberately ignore, a capacity to empathise. Looking at the bigger picture and using the well known idiom, cutting your nose off to spite you face, is a pretty reckless and one could say, stupid thing to do.

 

[Rusty Nails]

You could say that about any political party/movement. They all promise something different, or better. It does require the electorate to trust in the message and perhaps suspend belief. The stories and myths these political parties present require us the electorate to believe in them.

Socialism promises a fairer and more equal society built on the redistribution of wealth (although some socialist governments have chosen to go down an authoritarian route which is more closely aligned to fascism so one could argue are they really socialist?)

The biggest problem is politics being run by ideologues, who are usually the vocal minority, whether they are extreme left or extreme right. They always believe they know what is best for the people even if it does not actually reflect what the people want.

It is a cop out to refer to the "some" socialist governments who have gone down the authoritarian route as if they are a minor exception rather than some of the biggest nations in the world. People's greed for power corrupts all ideologies in the end.

 

[Hitchington]

The biggest problem is politics being run by ideologues, who are usually the vocal minority, whether they are extreme left or extreme right. They always believe they know what is best for the people even if it does not actually reflect what the people want.

It is a cop out to refer to the "some" socialist governments who have gone down the authoritarian route as if they are a minor exception rather than some of the biggest nations in the world. People's greed for power corrupts all ideologies in the end.

Democratic socialist governments which have avoided the authoritarian route:
Denmark
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Netherlands
Ireland
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Slovinia
Croatia
Armenia
Moldova
And Sweden before some of the electorate got the stupid and voted for a neo nazi party.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Democratic socialist governments which have avoided the authoritarian route:
Denmark
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Netherlands
Ireland
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Slovinia
Croatia
Armenia
Moldova
And Sweden before some of the electorate got the stupid and voted for a neo nazi party.

Democratic Socialist governments, not Socialist, which we were talking about.

I am not sure that Democratic Socialist isn't an oxymoron, and personally prefer the label Social Democrat, although that could be just splitting hairs.

I would happily go along with most of the political systems in those countries.

 

[Hitchington]

Democratic Socialist governments, not Socialist, which we were talking about.

I am not sure that Democratic Socialist isn't an oxymoron, and personally prefer the label Social Democrat, although that could be just splitting hairs.

I would happily go along with most of the political systems in those countries.

Socialist, democratic socialist... what are you so afraid of?
Besides socialism has brought us the NHS, state education, worker rights, the welfare system...
Right now we need more socialism, more than ever.

 

[Deleted member 49]

Democratic Socialist governments, not Socialist, which we were talking about.

I am not sure that Democratic Socialist isn't an oxymoron, and personally prefer the label Social Democrat, although that could be just splitting hairs.

I would happily go along with most of the political systems in those countries.

Your right it's "splitting hairs" but either or your not going to get it with Starmer !

 

[Rusty Nails]

Socialist, democratic socialist... what are you so afraid of?
Besides socialism has brought us the NHS, state education, worker rights, the welfare system...
Right now we need more socialism, more than ever.

There is a difference between Democratic Socialism and Socialism as political ideologies.

I am happy with the elements of socialism (small S) you mention, and have absolutely no fears at all about DS or SD as long as the D part is treated seriously, which has not always been the case.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Your right it's "splitting hairs" but either or your not going to get it with Starmer !

We have to get a Labour leader who can win a GE first. That would make a novel change.

 

[Deleted member 49]

We have to get a Labour leader who can win a GE first. That would make a novel change.

Are you sure it would change anything ? Do you actually know what your voting for...give me a clue when you find out.

 

[Hitchington]

There is a difference between Democratic Socialism and Socialism as political ideologies.

I am happy with the elements of socialism (small S) you mention, and have absolutely no fears at all about DS or SD as long as the D part is treated seriously, which has not always been the case.

Semantics 101 with Rusty Nails

 

[BoldonLad]

Democratic socialist governments which have avoided the authoritarian route:
Denmark
Norway
Finland
Iceland
Netherlands
Ireland
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Slovinia
Croatia
Armenia
Moldova
And Sweden before some of the electorate got the stupid and voted for a neo nazi party.

On the basis that Sweden would once have been in your list, shouldn't the first bolded bit say:

"which have avoided the authoritarian route, thus far" ?

 

[AuroraSaab]

I know several on here are in favour of electoral reform and/or proportional representation. I guess the Swedish result is the outcome of PR. One advantage of first past the post is that it keeps minority parties from having any role in a coalition and makes it harder for single issue parties to achieve much, other than publicity.

From this weeks results, it looks likely that the Islamic Nyans party will be on track to get a parliamentary seat next time too, though they haven't this time.

 

[newfhouse]

One advantage of first past the post is that it keeps minority parties from having any role in a coalition

Could you explain why you think this is an advantage in a democracy?

and makes it harder for single issue parties to achieve much, other than publicity.

UKIP says you’re wrong.

 

[AuroraSaab]

Are Ukip in power today? At their best electoral showing, under PR, they would have had 80 MP's out of 350. Enough to wield influence, if not hold the balance of power. PR would have helped them enormously.

Surely it's an advantage of FPTP that small extremist parties are kept out of power? Not so good for small parties with sensible policies I agree, but presumably if their ideas are good enough they will build a bigger following.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Are you sure it would change anything ? Do you actually know what your voting for...give me a clue when you find out.

I am not voting for anything for two years, by which time the Labour Party will have produced its manifesto , and even then I will only know after I have voted which of their electoral promises they will actually be able to carry out.

I am never sure, in advance, that anything a party promises will actually happen, never mind change much.

I vote as much in hope as expectation, and am usually disappointed.