Spin Time

[Stevo 666]

You mostly pay tax if you're an employee on PAYE. Loads of wealthy folk are not in that category and pay far less.
Our recent research shows there’s a lot of variation in the taxes paid by the rich. Most of the revenue from the top one per cent comes from a cohort of high-earning employees, who pay the often-quoted top rate of 45 per cent income tax plus two per cent national insurance contributions, with minimal deductions or reliefs. But a substantial minority pay much lower rates, especially taking into account capital gains, which offer an alternative way of taking rewards, mainly for the richest.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/economics/how-much-tax-do-the-rich-really-pay

Too high a CGT rate discourages investment and entrepreurial activity, so it's a balancing act. The simplistic 'just tax them more' approach does not work well when dealing with people who have choices, for example where to invest or operate.

 

[monkers]

Billionaire wealth surges by $2 trillion in 2024, three times faster than the year before, while the number of people living in poverty has barely changed since 1990​

Published: 20th January 2025

• Oxfam predicts there will be at least five trillionaires a decade from now.
• 204 new billionaires were minted in 2024, nearly four every week.
• Sixty percent of billionaire wealth is now derived from inheritance, monopoly power or crony connections, as Oxfam argues that “extreme billionaire wealth is largely unmerited.”
• Richest 1 percent in the Global North extracted $30 million an hour from the Global South through the financial system in 2023.
• Oxfam urges governments to tax the richest to reduce inequality, end extreme wealth, and dismantle the new aristocracy. Former colonial powers must address past harms with reparations.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-rele...ts there will be,2024, nearly four every week.

 

[monkers]

But countries can make themselves poorer by trying to extract ever increasing amounts of tax from the wealthiest who can afford do go elsewhere. Its surprising how many people don't get this.

There is also the point about jurisdiction. A lot of the businesses that wealthy taxpayers own are not even in the UK. So why should those businesses pay UK tax?

And also businesses and entrepreneurs are free to invest where they want. If the UK is not attractive enough as a place to imvest, they won't do it. One of the relevant factors is tax. Tax them too much, and you don't get the investment and business activity needed.

Yes, you are presenting the case for a global reset being needed. In which case we agree.

 

[Stevo 666]

Billionaire wealth surges by $2 trillion in 2024, three times faster than the year before, while the number of people living in poverty has barely changed since 1990​

Published: 20th January 2025

• Oxfam predicts there will be at least five trillionaires a decade from now.
• 204 new billionaires were minted in 2024, nearly four every week.
• Sixty percent of billionaire wealth is now derived from inheritance, monopoly power or crony connections, as Oxfam argues that “extreme billionaire wealth is largely unmerited.”
• Richest 1 percent in the Global North extracted $30 million an hour from the Global South through the financial system in 2023.
• Oxfam urges governments to tax the richest to reduce inequality, end extreme wealth, and dismantle the new aristocracy. Former colonial powers must address past harms with reparations.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/billionaire-wealth-surges-2-trillion-2024-three-times-faster-year-while-number#:~:text=Home-,Billionaire wealth surges by $2 trillion in 2024, three times,has barely changed since 1990&text=Oxfam predicts there will be,2024, nearly four every week.

Oxfam is just a left wing NGO with a charity attached. They have been rightly criticised before or their political leanings. Here's an example:
https://www.cato.org/commentary/oxfam-entitled-its-own-opinions-not-its-own-facts

You do realise that a lot of these people own business which employ people,may taxes amd of fourse create wealth for their owners as well - they aren't charities.

 

[Stevo 666]

Yes, you are presenting the case for a global reset being needed. In which case we agree.

Am I? Sure, we need governement to be less greedy and get off our backs a bit, but not sure that's a global reset in my mind.

 

[Stevo 666]

They're mostly the ones who don't pay much tax - see LSE link above.

Who decides what is enough tax?

 

[monkers]

Who decides what is enough tax?

The international order. Nearly all countries are fully signed up to the United Nations. The ones that are not are in effect rogue states. North Korea being one, and North America - where I am referring to the US.

There is a moral imperative that is reflected in the UNDHR. The Americans wanted to chair the table, but then didn't ratify the agreement.

Apparently it's more important to endorse the unlawful killing of 50 000 of their own citizens by gunfire each year. The USA protects wealth and not people.

I've met people like you before who want the benefits of the welfare state, but try hard to excuse themselves from paying their own contribution, citing nonsense like Laffer curve bollocks, and threatening to leave the UK for lower tax regimes. They also consider themselves patriots and paint Union jack images on their private jets.

What you advocate is indefensible.

 

[bobzmyunkle]

We'll miss the tax that they pay.

They're non-doms. By definition they're avoiding large amounts of tax in this country.

 

[monkers]

Oxfam is just a left wing NGO with a charity attached. They have been rightly criticised before or their political leanings. Here's an example:
https://www.cato.org/commentary/oxfam-entitled-its-own-opinions-not-its-own-facts

You do realise that a lot of these people own business which employ people,may taxes amd of fourse create wealth for their owners as well - they aren't charities.

Yes, everything left of ultra right is ''lefty bollocks'' isn't it.

 

[monkers]

Am I? Sure, we need governement to be less greedy and get off our backs a bit, but not sure that's a global reset in my mind.

I didn't say that that was what you were actually meaning to say. I said it is the case you are presenting. You presented the case that the system can not be changed by the UK acting alone, because wealth flight can move to other countries. Therefore you presented the case that it can only be stopped by means of a global reset. That being the case, I had no argument with what you said.

 

[CXRAndy]

Oh no, not more Laffer's curve bollocks.

Ask one of your many AI friends. It's a fact.👌

 

[monkers]

Ask one of your many AI friends. It's a fact.👌

I don't have any AI friends. I have a lot of real friends.

Laffer has some use in some situations, for example it was useful in judging how high cigarette prices would have to be to cause a drop in their purchase without exercising an outright ban - almost as if a blanket ban would be somehow wrong.

When applied to tax, the Laffer notably principle fails.

 

[Pross]

I think it's also oversimplification to think that what Trump is doing would be replicated anywhere else just because parties in other countries are the right of the political spectrum. That is a pretty unique situation in the USA.

In any event, voters here have plenty of exposure to Trump recently and it hardly put them off voting Reform, did it?

Pretty much all of Farage’s “policies” mirror Trump though. Doing away with “woke”, undoing attempts at net zero, ending immigration, breaking up the system etc.

 

[briantrumpet]

Pretty much all of Farage’s “policies” mirror Trump though. Doing away with “woke”, undoing attempts at net zero, ending immigration, breaking up the system etc.

Like Brexit, it's all destructive: break the system that's A Bit Shît, but you end up with something much much worse for the vast majority. (The ultra-wealthy will always profit from war or chaos.) The promise is unicorns, but the populist 'plan' is nothing of the sort, beyond the destruction.

 

[matticus]

Pretty much all of Farage’s “policies” mirror Trump though. Doing away with “woke”, undoing attempts at net zero, ending immigration, breaking up the system etc.

Hardly surprising, as he's spent more time following Trump around with his tongue hanging out, than actually doing any work in his own constituency.