Starmer's vision quest

[Regular.Cyclist]

So you think a sixteen year old should challenge a sixty year old to prove they're forty?

If that 60 year old is fortunate enough to look much younger then , yes, I would have no problem with that.

 

[BoldonLad]

So you think a sixteen year old should challenge a sixty year old to prove they're forty?

A bit of an inverted age obsession ?

I am 76, going on 77, does that mean I can only be challenged by those over 80 (say), when buying age restricted goods or services?

 

[winjim]

A bit of an inverted age obsession ?

I am 76, going on 77, does that mean I can only be challenged by those over 80 (say), when buying age restricted goods or services?

If you put it like that then one has to be eighteen years old to serve alcohol (I don't know about tobacco since the age went up) so the buyer only has to demonstrate that they are the same age or younger than the seller. When you make it so that the buyer has to be older than the seller, potentially by many years, you create a potential power imbalance.

I think it would have to become practice that age verification with photo ID is required for all tobacco purchases in order to avoid any confrontations.

 

[BoldonLad]

If you put it like that then one has to be eighteen years old to serve alcohol (I don't know about tobacco since the age went up) so the buyer only has to demonstrate that they are the same age or younger than the seller. When you make it so that the buyer has to be older than the seller, potentially by many years, you create a potential power imbalance.

I think it would have to become practice that age verification with photo ID is required for all tobacco purchases in order to avoid any confrontations.

That’s one method I suppose. I would err towards if the buyer confronts the shop assistant, then, they have “failed” the verification and do not get the goods.

 

[winjim]

That’s one method I suppose. I would err towards if the buyer confronts the shop assistant, then, they have “failed” the verification and do not get the goods.

There's a point of conflict, with a potential power imbalance that it's maybe best to avoid.

Anyway, I can't let this conversation carry on without posting this.


View: https://youtu.be/TiiTs-REKvg?si=DNRV2FG_IuPiy3Az

 

[icowden]

If you put it like that then one has to be eighteen years old to serve alcohol (I don't know about tobacco since the age went up) so the buyer only has to demonstrate that they are the same age or younger than the seller.

That's nonsense. The buyer has to demonstrate that they are older than 18. The seller can be any age but must be of the legal age to sell alcohol which is 18. We'd never get out of the supermarket if everyone had to be sold alcohol by someone older than them. Every shop would need a 100 year old employee just in case.

 

[winjim]

That's nonsense. The buyer has to demonstrate that they are older than 18. The seller can be any age but must be of the legal age to sell alcohol which is 18. We'd never get out of the supermarket if everyone had to be sold alcohol by someone older than them. Every shop would need a 100 year old employee just in case.

18 is younger than older than 18.



You know thinking about it, a fixed year of birth might be easier on the server. It's always awkward when you ask someone for ID and then realise you haven't done the mental arithmetic ahead of time and need to stand there under pressure trying to subtract 18 from the current date while not looking like too much of a tit.

 

[BoldonLad]

18 is younger than older than 18.



You know thinking about it, a fixed year of birth might be easier on the server. It's always awkward when you ask someone for ID and then realise you haven't done the mental arithmetic ahead of time and need to stand there under pressure trying to subtract 18 from the current date while not looking like too much of a tit.

Is this from personal experience?

Since I have not encountered a shop worker / bar worker, who actually does mental arithmetic, for as long as I can remember, it is fair to assume that "the machine" will be programmed to display/say yes/no on input of the DoB.

 

[winjim]

Is this from personal experience?

Since I have not encountered a shop worker / bar worker, who actually does mental arithmetic, for as long as I can remember, it is fair to assume that "the machine" will be programmed to display/say yes/no on input of the DoB.

Admittedly I've not worked a bar for 20 years but there was no machine. Someone shows you a small card with tiny writing on it and you've got to recognise the card, establish that it's genuine and acceptable ID, match the photo to the punter, find the DOB, read it and add 18 to it all in dim light with loud music blaring and loads of other thirsty customers clamouring for a drink. Bar work is a skill, and adding up the cost of a round and working out the change also involves a fair amount of mental arithmetic. You can use the till but when it's busy and there's a load of customers shouting at you and four other bar staff waiting to use the till it's a lot quicker and easier to do it in your head.

 

[icowden]

Admittedly I've not worked a bar for 20 years but there was no machine. Someone shows you a small card with tiny writing on it and you've got to recognise the card, establish that it's genuine and acceptable ID, match the photo to the punter, find the DOB, read it and add 18 to it all in dim light with loud music blaring and loads of other thirsty customers clamouring for a drink.

Why? All you need to know is that (for this year) the date of birth must be 2005 or older and for 2006 you need to check the day and month is before today.

 

[winjim]

Why? All you need to know is that (for this year) the date of birth must be 2005 or older and for 2006 you need to check the day and month is before today.

That's arithmetic.

 

[icowden]

That's arithmetic.

But is the number smaller than 2005 is very very simple compared to the maths you were proposing.

 

[winjim]

But is the number smaller than 2005 is very very simple compared to the maths you were proposing.

Because you've already done the necessary arithmetic to arrive at the number 2005. It was also a bit trickier to do on the hop in the naughties when the last two digits of the year were less than 18.

 

[BoldonLad]

Admittedly I've not worked a bar for 20 years but there was no machine. Someone shows you a small card with tiny writing on it and you've got to recognise the card, establish that it's genuine and acceptable ID, match the photo to the punter, find the DOB, read it and add 18 to it all in dim light with loud music blaring and loads of other thirsty customers clamouring for a drink. Bar work is a skill, and adding up the cost of a round and working out the change also involves a fair amount of mental arithmetic. You can use the till but when it's busy and there's a load of customers shouting at you and four other bar staff waiting to use the till it's a lot quicker and easier to do it in your head.

I think things may have moved on a bit. Every bar I have visited, in the last 5 years at least, has a till, most linked to a "tap to pay" machine. Most also have "single click" buttons for the common/popular drinks.

Even among my ancient drinking companions, few people actually pay with "money", "tap to pay" is the norm, one of our number has even graduated to paying via ApplePay.

Another minor point, the discussion was about the (new) regulations when buying tobacco, not the rules or circumstances when buying alcohol.

 

[winjim]

I think things may have moved on a bit. Every bar I have visited, in the last 5 years at least, has a till, most linked to a "tap to pay" machine. Most also have "single click" buttons for the common/popular drinks.

Even among my ancient drinking companions, few people actually pay with "money", "tap to pay" is the norm, one of our number has even graduated to paying via ApplePay.

Yeah we're deskilling our workforce. Sad times.