War with Russia

[Milzy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/04/wagner-group-mutiny-putin-prigozhin-russia

Perplexing indeed. I guess again that Putin dare not halt a war that never had strong main military support.

It’s in all our best interests to let him have the ethnic Russian land grab. More money for everyone and less people killed. If Putin died today one of his cronies will carry on his special military invasion operation.

 

[Unkraut]

It’s in all our best interests to let him have the ethnic Russian land grab

Tempting, but this would to a greater or lesser extent reward him for aggression. There was logic in allowing Hitler to incorporate all German-speaking territory in Europe into one country, but it didn't lead to peace. The temptation was to go for more. Would Putin stop at border changes with the Ukraine, or would he start wanting to incorporate other territories with Russian minorities such as live in the Baltic states, being a remnant of the Russian and Soviet Empire?

Recently saw a programme by two ethnic Germans from Russia who are journalists, who having dual nationality were able to visit 'to see relatives'. The report they made showed a kind of Putin youth, young people who might normally join the scounts or something being given the first taste of military training. Learning how to handle guns. Wasn't a nice thing to see.

There are also clearly a large number of people who are taken in by propaganda output and still support the military action. Dissenting opinions are not allowed. Against this there are those who are against the operation but are in no position to do anything about it. Any notion of opposition and freedom of speech has long since been virtually eliminated. The risk is too great. If they do speak out it is usually having fled the country, as one ex-Russian soldier now living in Paris did, and who revealed the brutality of the Russian Army to its own soldiers.

This was all in stark contrast to a Mark Felton production I happened to see on YT detailing the change in British forces since 1990 and the end of the cold war. A long tale of under-investment, significant reduction in size and capability, all in the name of saving money. Germany has probably been worse. No wonder the West is so anxious not to actually get involved in the war itself.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I can’t see how a government with the best spies and intel would get that so wrong. They must have known they’d fight back with Western backing.

That is wrong, Russia doesn't have the best spies nor intel, and any other myths has been proven to be wrong. oh and for the record, during the first motnh of the invasion Kyiv received zero western support, it took some time. and yet the Russians lost a lot.
Making the Russian army still the biggest provider of military hardware to Ukraine.

It’s in all our best interests to let him have the ethnic Russian land grab. More money for everyone and less people killed. If Putin died today one of his cronies will carry on his special military invasion operation.

Less people killed today, just like the west assumed in 2014 when he took Crimea, it's simply not true it allows Russia to rebuild it's army and attack again a few years later. most likely killing more not less

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

This was all in stark contrast to a Mark Felton production I happened to see on YT detailing the change in British forces since 1990 and the end of the cold war. A long tale of under-investment, significant reduction in size and capability, all in the name of saving money. Germany has probably been worse. No wonder the West is so anxious not to actually get involved in the war itself.

Yeah the Netherlands did away with all their tanks a few years ago for example, and not so long ago solders during practice had to shout ''bang bang'' instead of using real (practice) bullets. So yes western european armies have been, slowly ''undressed'' in the past decades, however if you look at eastern european countries with Poland as the best example not only because it's an quite big country, you see the opposite they are expanding also long before the war with Ukraine.

 

[spen666]

It’s in all our best interests to let him have the ethnic Russian land grab. More money for everyone and less people killed. If Putin died today one of his cronies will carry on his special military invasion operation.

I wonder if @Milzy 's idea of appeasing an expansionist aggressor has any precedent perhaps in 1930s

I wonder how it went previously

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

I wonder if @Milzy 's idea of appeasing an expansionist aggressor has any precedent perhaps in 1930s

I wonder how it went previously

To see how appeasing an aggressor went, the fact you wish to look as far back as the 1930s actually says something about you, you know.

Given even a child could have, e.g., seen:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5uuIR4LgRI


which includes:

Someone observed, and I think it unarguable against, that while for countries like Russia or China "national security" means free from external, potentially existential, threat to peace and unity of their country, it clearly means something very different to the US.

That most posters here are seemingly oblivious to this simple fact, and buy the impossible logic and evidence they are fed daily by mainstream media, "none so blind as those who will not see" comes to mind.

Never guaranteed in geopolitics, but in this case something closer to truth is likely to prevail eventually, I suspect.

 

[multitool]

geopolitics

Strange that you mention geopolitics, whilst comprehensively failing to understand what it is and apply the same analytical framework to Russia's actions that you apply to the West, almost as if you see some sort of purity within Russia's actions but are blind to their naked self-interest.

It isn't a zero sum game. The invasion of Iraq does not absolve Russia of its invasion of Ukraine, and just as the invasion of Iraq was opposed as immoral and underpinned by imperialism, so can be the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

 

[albion]

Simply a Pro Trump comment, Trump seeming to be working for or pro Russia.

 

[Unkraut]

The invasion of Iraq does not absolve Russia of its invasion of Ukraine,

Precisely.

and just as the invasion of Iraq was opposed as immoral and underpinned by imperialism, so can be the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Didn't over a million people go out on the streets to demonstrate against the Iraq war? In Russia you oppose the regime publically and you can get 15 years inside.

 

[multitool]

Precisely.

Didn't over a million people go out on the streets to demonstrate against the Iraq war? In Russia you oppose the regime publically and you can get 15 years inside.

Yes, but the Ukrainians are doing a pretty decent job of opposing it. And, of course, UK and US aid can be viewed as a moral act.

 

[Milzy]

I wonder if @Milzy 's idea of appeasing an expansionist aggressor has any precedent perhaps in 1930s

I wonder how it went previously

Neville Chamberlain was a fool though. This could be different and we could buy their non lethal nuclear tech and have free energy in Britain. Work together instead of against each other.
Let’s carry on as we are then and fight until every last Ukrainian is dead.

 

[Bromptonaut]

Neville Chamberlain was a fool though.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Deleted member 121]

Neville Chamberlain was a fool though. This could be different and we could buy their non lethal nuclear tech and have free energy in Britain. Work together instead of against each other.

I suppose you're right. If the British Government worked with Putin in the assassination of Sergei Skripal, innocent third parties wouldn't have been subsequently poisoned and killed.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

To see how appeasing an aggressor went, the fact you wish to look as far back as the 1930s actually says something about you, you know.

Think it's more both Putin's and Hitlers love with killing innocent people. and there is more Hitler loved re-education camps, a other joined hobby of these guys.. they only thing they don't seem to have in common is a love for the mustache

Given even a child could have, e.g., seen:



which includes:

i cut away all those selectively copied headlines, just not to fill half a screen again. You forgot to copy paste the other sides, you know when Iraq invaded Kuwait, when Iraq said they would destroy the west, when Iraq claimed they had new weapons of mass destruction (yes i know the kind of sources you follow like to pretend mod where a product of Bush's imagination but they where actually made up by Saddam.) So he could commit genocide on Kurds and other minorities.. Clinton dumped a few rockets on his face to stop him, after 9/11 Bush felt an full invasion was needed to stop the threat.
While we now known the evidence was not there it's a completely different story that what you make if it using one sided information, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Apart from Saddam's shared love for killing innocent people.

Someone observed, and I think it unarguable against, that while for countries like Russia or China "national security" means free from external, potentially existential, threat to peace and unity of their country, it clearly means something very different to the US.

Which was no problem under Jeltsin for example, and if Russia would stand up for their own country that is ok, however, in 1993 after Russia accepted the new formed countries such as Ukraine, in a seperate deal they promised not to attack their neighbours in exchange for their nuclear weapons.
So Russia did knew what national security is, stay within you international recognised borders. #
However since Putin they seems to have the idea that international border don't matter if you claim it was in an far or not so far past Russia. and they started to invade their neighbours either military or by installing puppets goverment.

But offcourse that's all mainstream media right?

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Strange that you mention geopolitics, whilst comprehensively failing to understand what it is and apply the same analytical framework to Russia's actions that you apply to the West, almost as if you see some sort of purity within Russia's actions but are blind to their naked self-interest.

It isn't a zero sum game. The invasion of Iraq does not absolve Russia of its invasion of Ukraine, and just as the invasion of Iraq was opposed as immoral and underpinned by imperialism, so can be the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

You the one who equated your thoughts here are as fantastical as playing 3D chess!?

Sorry. I don't think your play has improved...

What seems clear, is since you can't dispute the facts referred to in my post, they got you hot under the collar because they show you are cheering the side of the big imperial bully, its vassals, and its sacrificial lamb in this proxy war. Worse, they show "your side" can't win. So you resorted to putting words in my mouth - I see no purity (whatever that means) in Russia's actions, and of course they act in their self-interest. But their self-interest in this war is diametrically opposed to that of the US. This fundamental difference in self interest is of course also why Russia won't lose, while the US will as they do even against sandal wearers on mopeds, again due to fundamental difference in resolve caused by fundamental difference in self-interest.

Your unwillingness or incapability to see this is further confirmed in your mishmash of words by a false equivalence. Russia's war in Ukraine is NOT underpinned by imperialism just like the US' wars (which as you indicated, are).

As the facts I linked to amply demonstrate, Russia does not have 800 military bases around the world, and did not wage numerous wars in distant lands causing the deaths of over a million during the last 30 years, nor are they invading other countries and sabre waving on the other side of the globe. It might have helped your argument if Russia did fan a coup at the doorstep of the US, and then proceeded to arm the resulting government not only hostile to the US, but was also oppressing and killing ethnic Yanks! Wait!

If you can't see and understand the above, it is either because you are wilfully blind, or because you have terrible difficulties standing in the shoes of others. There is no cure for the former. For the latter*, this could be a step to a cure.

* like the Dutch guy perhaps, who just opined, remarkably, that "Russia did knew what national security is, stay within your international recognised borders"!!!!