War with Russia
- Thread starter Milzy
- Start date
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A
albion
Guest
Corbyn, obviously, is aligned with Trump on this one.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...jeremy-corbyn-over-sending-weapons-to-ukraine
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...jeremy-corbyn-over-sending-weapons-to-ukraine
multitool
Pharaoh
“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution; it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said in an interview with a Beirut-based TV channel last August. “We might be in for years and years of war in Ukraine.”
A solution for whom, Jeremy??
OP
OP
Milzy
Well-Known Member
Ssshhh we’ve got to keep the West supporting & glorify everything about Ukraine.
AndyRM
Elder Goth
Nobody is doing that, unless they're wired into some propaganda/conspiracy machine, which apparently you have been.
Well done, apparatchik.
RecordAceFromNew
Member
Re your "Funny thing" remark, that's the rule not the exception - how many American civilians were killed in the US by the numerous countries they invaded? And whom but morons believe they were invaded only for America's "survival"?
Sure, if that was my daughter, I might want to slaughter any Russian soldier I can find. However, that could also have been someone's daughter killed by the Ukrainian military in Donbas since 2014, or a photo from Iraq, or Libya, or Afghanistan, etc., proving how easy it is to manipulate popular opinion with selected narrative, and why the average Russian, whose country has been targetted by US sanctions and hostility, might welcome an open season for a hostile Ukraine siding with "the devil". But I suspect you are too blinkered to see that.
I have explained repeatedly to you, that moral judgements such as yours are not only biased, but even if unbiased they are never going to advance the examination and solution of great power conflicts, because great powers have no higher authority above them. I think I have wasted my time though, as you appear completely blind and deaf to such obvious facts and concepts.
While we agree Ukraine signed the Minsk agreements in bad faith (not that signing anything in good faith guarantees anything in geopolitics, as the Budapest Memo shows), it does indicate Putin was not hell bent on conquering Ukraine for empire, as SO many say, else why did he sign and not just pushed on like you say he could have? Since you also agree Russia is not strong economically and in conventional warfare, these are also good reasons for Russia to want to sue for peace for the foreseeable future, if the terms allow them to show Ukraine have learnt their lesson, and will no longer be a thorn on Russia's side.
So what you are saying, is while Zelensky was and will be wrong all the time, he has been an accidental hero / genius in this conflict? That's such an interesting idea - we have the same thing here!
I read very few posts in this parish nowadays, but from what I see, think it is fair to say most posters have a healthy circumspection, if not downright disrespect for our political leaders and their domestic policies. Is it not curious then, that the majority in this thread seem positively cheering on if not finding wisdom in their foreign policy here? Doesn't it show how even intelligent people can be manipulated repeatedly by selective, emotive narratives (like multitool kindly demonstrated for us all to see above)? And witnessing how much hostility one can get for stating the obvious here, would / could any politician say and do anything but, without committing political seppuku?
I understand and accept that right minded people are drawn to doing what is good, even if great power politics has little to do with morals, but how is standing shoulder to shoulder with the biggest, worst bully on earth egging the Ukrainians on a path to self-destruction good? Western politicians talk about standing on the right side of history upholding rules based order against those who aren't, how about starting with the worst international rules breakers they are standing next to, if not themselves?
Rules based order is indeed what we can and must uphold domestically, but how are we doing, while we try to convince others our system and institutions lead the world?
If it wasn't so tragic for so many, this show would indeed be a blockbuster comedy.
multitool
Pharaoh
Think of this exchange as 3D chess, but you can't even see the chessboard.
It's up here! Coeeeee!!
My position is that the Russian invasion is wrong. But it isn't just morally wrong, it is also tactically, strategically, economically, and intellectually wrong.
You response is to cite other invasions, such as those carried out by the US. This is a particularly weird form of whataboutery given that I think their invasions were also wrong. You devote your first and last paragraph to this bizarre attempt at a zero-sum game with somebody who isn't trying to make a moral equivalence. And to be clear I mean me.
Your middle paragraph is just a massive whoosh.
stowie
Active Member
I don't agree with that at all.
icowden
Squire
He didn't "push on" because he would lose. His supply lines would be strung to thin and his troops slaughtered. He won't withdraw because he would lose. He is feeding disinformation to the Russian people. Rebuilding the USSR is his KGB wet dream.
RecordAceFromNew
Member
Hahahaha bloke whose position has been
thinks he is SO smart, that our exchange is like playing 3D chess!! Hahahahahaha!
D
Deleted member 121
Guest
So after over a year on we’ve got some supporting the Western narrative. Some who think Russia are in the wrong but may have been provoked but most don’t have a *beep* clue what is really going on.
Pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with people today. Its not about west vs east or left vs right. Its about imposing ones view and will on to others.... Im right you're wrong. I know the truth and you know nothing etc etc.... This is not a discussion its a bending of wills and why it shouldn't be taken seriously at all.
multitool
Pharaoh
So after over a year on we’ve got some supporting the Western narrative. Some who think Russia are in the wrong but may have been provoked but most don’t have a *beep* clue what is really going on.
"the Western narrative".
What is it called if somebody in the east believes the same thing?
icowden
Squire
It's not a narrative. The study of events has been based on numerous different sources of information and news. In a closed country like Russia there is a narrative as truth is not allowed.So after over a year on we’ve got some supporting the Western narrative. Some who think Russia are in the wrong but may have been provoked but most don’t have a *beep* clue what is really going on.
If you seriously think a government as crap as ours could successfully manage to join in a conspiracy theory to feed a false narrative to the world, you think an awful lot more of them than I do. Grayling would have left the plans on a bus and Truss would have posted them on twitter by now. Boris would have painted them on the side of a bus. Raab would still be holding them upside down and Braverman would be trying to figure out how to use them to ban more foreigners.
