War with Russia

[FishFright]

Not quite. Dutchie has a point which may be unfashionable around here but that doesn't make it any less valid.
Also - before getting accused as a warmonger, let's not conflate what needs to be done with what we are willing to do.

The west and I suspect most here underestimate how ingrained Russian Military might is into the psyche of the Russian people.
You can't travel far in Russia without glorious memorials, military propaganda, military personnel, military parades, patriotic songs. Russian TV is almost an endless procession of Russian War Movies and the News is an endless procession of military exploits and patriotic stories. We laugh at Putin's strongman image, but it's an integral part of what the majority of Russians want; a strong leader to protect them and the means to protect the motherland from all-comers. Of course the west is usually the bogey-man in all this. One UK Destroyer entering the Black Sea is projected as an invasion.
Russians are tough hardy proud people. Many live in conditions that we would find hard to endure. These are the people of Stalingrad and the 900 days....

So, taking that on-board, there is not a cat in hell's chance that Putin will withdraw troops. He will lie to his people about their performance, he will silence dissenters and he will control the narrative, but he will not under any circumstances retreat. He will however (and his playbook is well documented on this), ramp up the atrocities and find excuses for domestic consumption to do this. But he will wage war. Anything less than victory by ANY means is untenable. Putin and his regime do not care about dead babies or sanctions. People starving on his streets, will be spun to give more power to his elbow to defeat the fascists.

Hoping that Ukraine unaided can drive them from their lands is a great hope, they will face endless atrocities with chemical and possibly bio-weapons... I don't think they can do this alone.
There will not be any kind of peoples revolution that will depose him in any suitable timescale.
He may face a coup within the Kremlin, but only if he shows weakness, and those that depose him are probably just as insane.

BUT, the west cannot afford to let Putin win.

And it's a moot point, but we're already at war, WW3 is underway, any other description is dancing on a pin.. We might not have fired a bullet, but, training, arming and supporting Ukraine with weapons, economic warfare, and no doubt cyber-warfare against Russia is still war. Hand-wringing about sending Polish Migs to Ukraine is no different than supplying anti-tank missiles.

Putin's Russia has to be defeated militarily and the regime changed...that's not going to be done by Ukraine alone.

I see you're another farking idiot .

Do you get a buzz wishing thermo-nuclear hell on the world?

Or are you a crazy enough think there a way to win a war with Putin's Russia without escalation ?

The only way out of this is to talk, talk and talk some more.

 

[FishFright]

Best in the world sh1te...it's not a fecking competition.

Isn't it disturbing to find how many people on here are getting a semi over a possible nuclear war.

 

[BoldonLad]

I see you're another farking idiot .

Do you get a buzz wishing thermo-nuclear hell on the world?

Or are you a crazy enough think there a way to win a war with Putin's Russia without escalation ?

The only way out of this is to talk, talk and talk some more.

seems a reasonable assessment to me.... but... what if that doesn't work?

 

[Deleted member 121]

Sure but we already have two Nuclear powerplants in the Ukraine which have loose contact, one is confirmed to be out of power. So the luxury of choosing the moment of attack seems to be slipping away we would a much bigger problem if either of those powerplant causes a other nuclear disaster. Both us, France, the uk have nuclear weapons, putting them on ''high alert'' or however it is called just like Russia surely is an other determent. (alltough i off course hope they are not used)


I don't think tanks are the biggest asset in these kind of Wars, look on how easyly they are taken out with those TB2 drones and hand held rocket launchers for example, the Us has lots of the more powerfull reaper drone, if they fly a farm(a other thing US has recently made lots of progress on) of those things above Kyiv, Charkiv or Mariupol for a they they can wipe out all Russia's dirty weapons, tanks and such.
Just as a full on wart against Russia might not be needed, just get them out off Ukraine first in a way that's is undisputly clear that they are defeated and, from now on respond very strongly to any future ''exercises'' in such a way that they would think twice about turning an ''exercise'' into a war.


Yeah like i said above i don't think traditional tank or even foot solder roll-out is going to work here. You see that too with the Russians, time and time again they are defeated not only because there badly motivated, but also because the Ukrainians know every alley, ditch and tree in the area and the others do not.


Yes to be honest i don't know half or them but wasn't Ukraine supposed to be protected from Russia invasion by the Warsaw pact that saw them turning in their Nuclear weapons in exchange of said protection? and if so what are those treaty's really worth then?


We still have a strongish Army in europe but it has been trimmed down in much countries, i remember also how Trump(and i'm no fan of Trump, but he was correct on this point) was ridiculled when he said Nato countries need to keep up the 2% gbp military spending. The same who laughed at him now are in the forefront of hastily announcing more military spending. (to late you need to invest to be ready for a future war not whilst it is playing out.)

But i war with a country like Russia will never be easy not without a price. the question is more what is the price of inaction? The last time it was Georgia, not it's Ukraine, What if Poland of Finland is next?

I don't think thousands of troops are gonna help much, because if you look at how it is going, Ukraine isn't loosing much of his troops during fighting, it's the thermobaric batteries, bomb attacks that kill most including pregnant women children etc. so a not fly zone would help a lot, i understand the reservations and of course they are very valid, but if Russia gets away with this, the changes are they they come back stronger, would we want that?




Yes with ships is always a bit confusing under which flag they sail because you have so much leasing constructions and such. Maybe Turkey made a deal with Russia they where at the foot of war sometime after Russia downed a Turkish F-16 on the Turkish/syria border but ever since then them seem to be somekind of friennemies

I don't have the time to address all of that. The issue if armour relevance in the modern army can he debated to death. Military experts are at a 50/50 split. I side with it still being relevant though I am not a military expert...

The price of inaction of the Russian - Georgian conflict, Chechnya, Crimea etc is that we haven't entered a bloody and senseless war over things that little impact our lives. It is undoubtedly tough on the populations of those countries. Grozny was similarly shelled to the ground with a loss of 8000 or so lives, a tactic the Russians still are using... A war with NATO is a different prospect entirely, many more lives will be lost and yes Nuclear war is a very real threat, so millions of lives. If Russia do invade a NATO country then NATO will defend it. But we are not going to preemptively attack Russia and neither should we. We should prepare for the worst and stand up for our way if life but at the same time hope for the best, really really hope for the best....

 

[FishFright]

seems a reasonable assessment to me.... but... what if that doesn't work?

The we are all dead , or as close to all that the difference doesn't matter. Russia can make the UK no longer exist without a noticeable dent in it's arsenal.
To believe there's a way to get a victory for Plucky Britain against Russia / USSR has been a total fantasy since the invention of the H bomb.

 

[Deleted member 49]

While it would indeed be hilarious if the leader of Her Majesty's opposition came out and straight up called the British armed forces a bunch of pussies, there's war on the horizon and he'd like to be the one to lead them in it so it's probably best for him to at least be seen to show them, and our NATO allies, a bit of respect.

Did anyone mention disrespecting them? Also there's not a war on the horizon,were allready involved.
I'd of preferred him to be on the case for ending visa restrictions and calling for ceasefires, but whatever floats your boat....I mean like you said earlier "no big deal" except it is.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I see you're another farking idiot .

Do you get a buzz wishing thermo-nuclear hell on the world?

Or are you a crazy enough think there a way to win a war with Putin's Russia without escalation ?

The only way out of this is to talk, talk and talk some more.

Thanks.
Even when explained you still don't get it do you?
It"s not what I want, just my cold analysis of the situation - one borne of NATO and the liberal west taking it's eye off the ball and an opinion formed after many years spent travelling to, and working in Russia.

Talk about what?
Either you give Putin what he wants or you fight him for it. That's it.
What's it to be?

Pushing the nuke button gets him nothing. I don't believe that's his plan.

And if you appease Putin now, when he wants more, say the Baltic states then what?

 

[Fab Foodie]

Isn't it disturbing to find how many people on here are getting a semi over a possible nuclear war.

Who here wants a nuclear war, or war if any kind? It's your warped thinking, nothing more....

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I see you're another farking idiot .

Do you get a buzz wishing thermo-nuclear hell on the world?

Or are you a crazy enough think there a way to win a war with Putin's Russia without escalation ?

The only way out of this is to talk, talk and talk some more.

Talk, you mean the thing, Macron, Trudeau, Biden, Johnson etc. Already have been doing without much succes?
Talking doesn't do anything when your opponent insist on war, he needs too lose

I don't have the time to address all of that. The issue if armour relevance in the modern army can he debated to death. Military experts are at a 50/50 split. I side with it still being relevant though I am not a military expert...

sure but what i gathered from various sources is that it also depends a lot on the setting, and what we have seen in this war is that tanks are to slow, sometimes they are passed by an van, they get out a bit further, launch shoot the rocket launcher and done. the response time is way to slow to do anything of meaning.

The price of inaction of the Russian - Georgian conflict, Chechnya, Crimea etc is that we haven't entered a bloody and senseless war over things that little impact our lives. It is undoubtedly tough on the populations of those countries. Grozny was similarly shelled to the ground with a loss of 8000 or so lives, a tactic the Russians still are using... A war with NATO is a different prospect entirely, many more lives will be lost and yes Nuclear war is a very real threat, so millions of lives. If Russia do invade a NATO country then NATO will defend it. But we are not going to preemptively attack Russia and neither should we. We should prepare for the worst and stand up for our way if life but at the same time hope for the best, really really hope for the best....

And part of those Chechen are now part of Putin/Russia's elite/ruthless fighting force, so that give to show that letting this war run doesn;t come without consequences, same as the situation with nuclear reactors, by doing nothing we making Russia more dangerous than it already is.
I think waiting to stand up for our way of life when they invade an NATO country will be to late, the have underestimated Ukraine they won't underestimate taking on Nato if they get the chance to choose their moment of attack.
The only gamble by doing nothing/almost nothing now that could work out is that Putin either dies or gets help in die-ing or stepping down. but that seems unlikely and or wouldn't necessary be an better situation.

The we are all dead , or as close to all that the difference doesn't matter. Russia can make the UK no longer exist without a noticeable dent in it's arsenal.
To believe there's a way to get a victory for Plucky Britain against Russia / USSR has been a total fantasy since the invention of the H bomb.

But it's not without consequences for Russia, The uk, France, whereever the Us stores his Nuclear warheads in europe today, the us itself all have Nuclear bomb too, i don't hope for an nuclear fallout don't get me wrong, but if we as part of Nato would all put those weapons on ''high alert'' or however they call it, it's not longer the prospect of attacking one country with a massive bomb, but one attack with a massive bomb that would guarantee a bigger attack in return.
So that would serve as a massive detterent.

 

[FishFright]

Thanks.
Even when explained you still don't get it do you?
It"s not what I want, just my cold analysis of the situation - one borne of NATO and the liberal west taking it's eye off the ball and an opinion formed after many years spent travelling to, and working in Russia.

Talk about what?
Either you give Putin what he wants or you fight him for it. That's it.
What's it to be?

Pushing the nuke button gets him nothing. I don't believe that's his plan.

And if you appease Putin now, when he wants more, say the Baltic states then what?

It was nothing but a pure faux machismo fantasy.

You might want your friends and family dead but not all of us wish for oblivion .

 

[Fab Foodie]

It was nothing but a pure faux machismo fantasy.

You might want your friends and family dead but not all of us wish for oblivion .

Here you go again with unfounded allegation!

Where have I said I want anyone dead?
Where have I said I wish for oblivion?

 

[Deleted member 28]

It was nothing but a pure faux machismo fantasy.

You might want your friends and family dead but not all of us wish for oblivion .

I think you need to grow a pair, hopefully talking will sort it out but if not what then?

I rarely agree with the flabfoid but on this occasion he does seem to have a valid point, he also doesn't appear to be 'wanting' anything.

 

[BoldonLad]

The we are all dead , or as close to all that the difference doesn't matter. Russia can make the UK no longer exist without a noticeable dent in it's arsenal.
To believe there's a way to get a victory for Plucky Britain against Russia / USSR has been a total fantasy since the invention of the H bomb.

I didn't say there was a way "plucky Britain" could get "victory", but, when the talking is fruitless and exhausted, and, we cornered, and, the choices are death or death, the decision making process is no longer logical (that is not to say current situation is "logical").

 

[Ian H]

Meanwhile, outside the Western world, opinion seems to be rather different in S America, Africa, and Asia. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-on-the-ukraine-disagreement-outside-the-west

 

[theclaud]

Not quite. Dutchie has a point which may be unfashionable around here but that doesn't make it any less valid.
Also - before getting accused as a warmonger, let's not conflate what needs to be done with what we are willing to do.

The west and I suspect most here underestimate how ingrained Russian Military might is into the psyche of the Russian people.
You can't travel far in Russia without glorious memorials, military propaganda, military personnel, military parades, patriotic songs. Russian TV is almost an endless procession of Russian War Movies and the News is an endless procession of military exploits and patriotic stories. We laugh at Putin's strongman image, but it's an integral part of what the majority of Russians want; a strong leader to protect them and the means to protect the motherland from all-comers. Of course the west is usually the bogey-man in all this. One UK Destroyer entering the Black Sea is projected as an invasion.
Russians are tough hardy proud people. Many live in conditions that we would find hard to endure. These are the people of Stalingrad and the 900 days....

So, taking that on-board, there is not a cat in hell's chance that Putin will withdraw troops. He will lie to his people about their performance, he will silence dissenters and he will control the narrative, but he will not under any circumstances retreat. He will however (and his playbook is well documented on this), ramp up the atrocities and find excuses for domestic consumption to do this. But he will wage war. Anything less than victory by ANY means is untenable. Putin and his regime do not care about dead babies or sanctions. People starving on his streets, will be spun to give more power to his elbow to defeat the fascists.

Hoping that Ukraine unaided can drive them from their lands is a great hope, they will face endless atrocities with chemical and possibly bio-weapons... I don't think they can do this alone.
There will not be any kind of peoples revolution that will depose him in any suitable timescale.
He may face a coup within the Kremlin, but only if he shows weakness, and those that depose him are probably just as insane.

BUT, the west cannot afford to let Putin win.

And it's a moot point, but we're already at war, WW3 is underway, any other description is dancing on a pin.. We might not have fired a bullet, but, training, arming and supporting Ukraine with weapons, economic warfare, and no doubt cyber-warfare against Russia is still war. Hand-wringing about sending Polish Migs to Ukraine is no different than supplying anti-tank missiles.

Putin's Russia has to be defeated militarily and the regime changed...that's not going to be done by Ukraine alone.

I'm sorry Foodster but this is verging on the unhinged. Not that that marks it out as unusual with the way discourse around the invasion is going.