American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

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mudsticks

Squire
I'm not going to bother with a lengthy reply to Unkraut's last, because it's so grotesque I don't wish to dignify it by treating it as a legitimate argument, but it's clear from the opener that the forced birther position is mainly about punishing women for having sex (whether it's sex they wanted or not) or (in the case of the IVF he alludes to) punishing them for not affirming the importance of male sexual performance as procreation. I've got a theory that the reason such extreme misogynist views are indulged with respectful 'debate' is that the urge to punish women runs very deep, and very close to the surface even amongst many people whose conscious political position is more enlightened. Anyway, I suppose we should at least thank him for making it so visible.

Yup.

And underlying misogynist views are sadly very present in some women too.

Closely allied to not wanting to 'upset' the dominant men or their egos..

An understandable self protective device, I guess, among less assured, educated, or independent women, so as to not draw down ire, or risk the withholding of controlled resources .

And that's why many men don't want us equal I guess..
We'll end up having lives of our own..
Not centred on them..

I agree there are a lot of men who are superficially supportive, of our rights, but when it comes to it , they'll return to their manosphere 'safe spaces'.

Pretend it's not happening, or nothing to do with them.

There's a few good examples of men who are not like that on here..
They know, we know who they are, I hope.

But others will start getting all twitchy about us being 'rude' about abhorrent views.
Whilst quite happy to applaud, or at in least ignore rudeness towards women.

Small wonder they're reluctant to classify misogyny as a hate crime..

Once you start paying attention it's everywhere.
 

Ian H

Legendary Member
I wouldn't join a religion that would have me as a believer....
One of those hybrid remarx.
 

Bazzer

Well-Known Member
So the argument is not about women's autonomy or attempts to control them, it is does the new life that is created at conception come under thou shalt not kill? That abortion is about the unjustified ending of human life. The right to life trumps autonomy. This living being even when still a clump of cells is not part of her body. It may even have been fertilised outside of it.
So presumably you are also against IUDs?
 

mudsticks

Squire
So presumably you are also against IUDs?
Yup .

Just wait til he finds out they don't necessarily prevent an egg being fertilised , although it can do that in many instances by slowing down or stopping the transit/ viability of sperm .


It just makes the uterus a hostile environment for a fertilised egg to implant.

They'll be wanting to 'ban' them next
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
I completely agree with you. However one of the tenets common to all (I think) religions is that only those "in" the religion will be saved, go to a nice afterlife, and those "out" will not, therefore it is behoven of those who are "in" to try to convert those who are "out". Whether or not they do it is another matter entirely and I agree that many individuals don't bother - it doesn't mean that one should not be wary of the religion however and how it is being used, whatever that religion may be.

Since I am a total non-believer, I could really comment. Perhaps, my wife and her Catholic friends/relatives don't want me to be saved and go to heaven, that would explain their lack of pressure to "join"? ;)

Actually, my wife and a couple of her relatives do say I will get in before them, on the basis of my actual behaviour towards others, so, I may get a "free pass", if it turns out I was wrong, and, there is somewhere to go ;)
 

Bazzer

Well-Known Member
Yup .

Just wait til he finds out they don't necessarily prevent an egg being fertilised , although it can do that in many instances by slowing down or stopping the transit/ viability of sperm .


It just makes the uterus a hostile environment for a fertilised egg to implant.

They'll be wanting to 'ban' them next
I understand that is in the sights of certain US states, should Roe be overturned.
 

mudsticks

Squire
I understand that is in the sights of certain US states, should Roe be overturned.

I wonder how many weeks of a 'America wide, women's sex, and domestic work ' strike it would take for these idiots to crawl back under their rocks .

If you're in possession of a uterus, and don't 'believe' in or approve of contraception, access to terminations, then fine don't do those things yourself..

Otherwise just let women choose for themselves, like they're fully formed grown ups 👍🏼
 

BoldonLad

Old man on a bike. Not a member of a clique.
Location
South Tyneside
Sorry - I genuinely didn't mean to imply any such thing. I apologise for any ambiguity in my language that gave that impression.

OK, No problem ;)
 

AndyRM

Elder Goth
Yes a woman's right to choose whether or not to continue being pregnant, and whether or not to have a child..

The argument is her autonomy It's her body, it doesn't belong to anyone else, If you say an unformed foetus has more right to use her body to grow in than she has right over her own body then you're elevating the rights of that foetus over hers.

No one has the right to force her to have a child.

I don't know why anyone sees any good in that, for the woman, for an unwanted child, or society.

Apart from the fact that she may well have not chosen to have sex at all (rape)
She may not have chosen to have sex in order to become pregnant .

Humans have consenting sex for many other reasons than procreation, this is why contraception exists, and has done as part of medical science for a long time.

Before that a variety of other methods were used, with varying degrees in of success, but outside of sterilisation, or infertility, nothing is infallible.


Do you only ever have sex with your wife when trying for a baby??

Depending on your technique, poor, or lucky her..

Sometimes contraception fails, inside or outside of marriage.

You seem to think that women should always bare the consequences of having sex, where contraception failed (or where there was rape) and be forced to have unwanted children.

Why, what good comes of that.??
Bearing , and birthing children, let alone raising them is a heavy burden on a woman's body, and a big responsibility.

Why do you want to force that, on a woman especially when there is a safe effective way of terminating those unwanted pregnancies early on.

I said that your quoting of the pastor was garbage because the vast majority of what he alleges happens isn't true. Any half truths he puts are presented in such a way as to be deliberately inflammatory..

If that's what 'pro-lifers' are believing then they need to give their heads a good old shake, and get educated


I could list any number of horrible situations where the consequences for a woman being forced to have a child, or the way in which a woman was forced by a man to become pregnant, have been horrific, there are many millions of instances, of women being treated terribly, and they are true, but those horror stories are not necessary to support the 'right to choose' .

They lend weight, and draw peoples attention to bad situations, but however an unwanted pregnancy occurred it's still a woman's own body, it's her choice .

If you say as you did earlier that terminations might be ok in instances of rape or incest, why then, and not any other bundle of cells??

Does that bundle of cells that was formed by a rapist impregnating a woman have less 'right' to grow in a woman's body, than any other bundle of cells, why?, it's not their fault how they were formed is it?


As for the idea of religion or state, somehow forcing people into marriage, and then forcing them to stay married, if a pregnancy occurs that's a fine recipe for miserable people, miserable children and further abuse.

Or are you going to somehow police against all sex outside of marriage.??

Good luck with that..

Come to think about it, you're going to police against all sex inside marriage too, if that sexual congress is not intended for procreation purposes then stop it now!!

Yes men need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions.

Part of that 'growing up' would be to stop trying to force unwanted pregnancies on women, or trying to control them in other ways.

tldr.

The only humane option is allowing women to choose whether or not to have children .

Principally through the provision of freely accessible and appropriate contraception.

But if that has failed, and the woman has no wish to continue an unplanned pregnancy then she should have the right to end it through an early termination.

Her body, her choice.

Anything else is forced continuation of a pregnancy which is inhumane.

You did a lot better than me.

I got this far:

"No-one forced the women to get pregnant in the first place."

Thought, naaaaahhhhhh, I don't think so. Chapeau for your post though, very well said and gave me a good idea of the shite I avoided.
 

mudsticks

Squire
You did a lot better than me.

I got this far:

"No-one forced the women to get pregnant in the first place."

Thought, naaaaahhhhhh, I don't think so. Chapeau for your post though, very well said and gave me a good idea of the shite I avoided.

I'm my own worst enemy sometimes..
I don't know why I get sucked in..

But as Mr @Unkraut had finally deigned to respond to one of my posts, I thought I'd bother..

Thanks for the appreciation all the same 👍🏼..

Cue someone coming along and accusing you of 'White Knighting' now .

Cos guys, or even non binary sorts can't possibly compliment a woman on her output, or support her in any way without a hidden agenda right??

Sadly that's all part of the same old, same old bahoolix...
 

ebikeerwidnes

Senior Member
If some states in the USA ban contraceptives then what's the betting they only ban the supply of them in their own state

Hence people with enough money can still get them by travelling or paying someone to get them

Given a lot of rich people in those states have been in steady relationship - between a man and a woman - for many years and yet have only a few children then it seems likely that they either
a) don't have sex
or
b) use some form of contraceptive
and I can't see that changing

poorer (and darker) people may not have the same options

or am I being cynical


again
 

icowden

Legendary Member
The only humane option is allowing women to choose whether or not to have children .
Principally through the provision of freely accessible and appropriate contraception.
But if that has failed, and the woman has no wish to continue an unplanned pregnancy then she should have the right to end it through an early termination.
Her body, her choice.
Anything else is forced continuation of a pregnancy which is inhumane.
<applause>

Worth noting though that there is a correlation in *many* cases that where a woman is forced into childbirth, the child doesn't do so well either usually due to a combination of poverty, mental health issues etc. These rich white men legislating against women don't care so much once the child is born...
 

mudsticks

Squire
<applause>

Worth noting though that there is a correlation in *many* cases that where a woman is forced into childbirth, the child doesn't do so well either usually due to a combination of poverty, mental health issues etc. These rich white men legislating against women don't care so much once the child is born...

Yup there is coercion and 'forcing' of women, both to continue, and terminate pregnancies .

As detailed in this article which I offer here for the third time.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-coercion-reproduction-abortion-a8834306.html

It is all about control, of women, and their bodies.
That is seemingly what a sizeable proportion of the men in this world want to do.

They have also recruited 'helpmates' both concious and unconcious in all this 'system of control' from the ranks of womanhood.

Carriers of water for the patriachy - more zealous often than the guys...


As you say, once the child is born, unless there's some gain to be made..
Nope not interested, they become a 'burden' on society, these fecund women are 'feckless' ..

'Scrounging' welfare seekers... etc etc

Too many kids - irresponsible, how is she going to support all those ??

Too few, or none at all??

Dried up old spinster, not a 'real' woman...

It's almost as if the 'game' is set up for a woman to 'fail' whichever she does..

Until that is you get free of the 'game' by taking charge of your own destiny.

But you need resources, determination, opportunities, and not a little luck to pull that one off..

Not everyone gets those chances..
 
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