American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

[newfhouse]

Concern now about period tracker apps being used as evidence of pregnancy.

View: https://twitter.com/ECMcLaughlin/status/1521467912162226176?t=e8NXUqM-EG0_-PdmbZW9Ww&s=19

 

[mudsticks]

If enough people are unhappy enough about the changes then the Tories can be voted out, and of course their replacements will reverse the changes.....won't they?

It is up to the opposition parties to highlight the pernicious effects of these changes as part of their current opposition in parliament and as part of their campaigns before the next elections.

It's also up to people to be bothered to engage their brains politically, for the press to report accurately , and for our democratic systems - such as they are - to be upheld.

The introduction of voted id . and other changes to electoral system make 'regime change' increasingly unlikely with each new manouvre.

Its the frog in the pot syndrome - our rights are being eroded little by little and so many people seem to neither to know, nor care.


Or else they're so busy 'just getting by' in their day to day lives, that they feel too helpless or hopeless to do anything about it.

 

[Rusty Nails]

It's also up to people to be bothered to engage their brains politically, for the press to report accurately , and for our democratic systems - such as they are - to be upheld.

The introduction of voted id . and other changes to electoral system make 'regime change' increasingly unlikely with each new manouvre.

Its the frog in the pot syndrome - our rights are being eroded little by little and so many people seem to neither to know, nor care.


Or else they're so busy 'just getting by' in their day to day lives, that they feel too helpless or hopeless to do anything about it.

All those changes you mention can be opposed. That's why we have opposition parties. They need to up their acts.

The apathy of the public, and the biased nature of our press are big problems, but the second is not going to be changed anytime soon and the first depends on opposition politicians, and the government, getting the message over in a way that does not invite cynicism/apathy.

Sadly, if the public cannot be arsed then we get the policies we are told will be good for the people, and which will certainly be good for the elite, not necessarily the ones that are good for the people.

 

[winjim]

An interesting argument, and I've seen this point made previously by other Rabbis on twitter, that an abortion ban in the US may be unconstitutional since it infringes the religious rights of Jews.


View: https://twitter.com/RavBogard/status/1521669490278285313?t=Jn4I2JimhhABN7UzWnwIjA&s=19



IIRC there's a story in the Bible (OT) which can be interpreted as involving use of an abortifacient.

 

[Fab Foodie]

If enough people are unhappy enough about the changes then the Tories can be voted out, and of course their replacements will reverse the changes.....won't they?

It is up to the opposition parties to highlight the pernicious effects of these changes as part of their current opposition in parliament and as part of their campaigns before the next elections.

This does rather assume we have an electoral system that represents the majority view...which we don't. FPTP is tipped in favour of the Tories who are trying to rig-it further to their benefit....

 

[mudsticks]

An interesting argument, and I've seen this point made previously by other Rabbis on twitter, that an abortion ban in the US may be unconstitutional since it infringes the religious rights of Jews.


View: https://twitter.com/RavBogard/status/1521669490278285313?t=Jn4I2JimhhABN7UzWnwIjA&s=19



IIRC there's a story in the Bible (OT) which can be interpreted as involving use of an abortifacient.

Do we have to drag what some (patriachal) religion, said yay or nay in their book however so long ago, into this..

Or even the "What if your daughter, or other woman you care about was raped / suffering ectopic pregnancy/ in an abusive relationship / likely to fall into poverty with the birth of another child?" etc etc arguments*..

*Sad that it has to be a 'significant to them' female before the old thinking up device can possibly get engaged.

Can't we have clear and simple

"Our bodies our choice"
No one else's business,

And have done with it ??

 

[Rusty Nails]

This does rather assume we have an electoral system that represents the majority view...which we don't. FPTP is tipped in favour of the Tories who are trying to rig-it further to their benefit....

What we have is wrong and a stitch-up by the major parties, but when it was mooted in 2012 PR/AV wasn't exactly a huge attraction to the voters. 40% turnout and 2/1 against the change. At my reckoning that's roughly 60% cba, 26% stick with FPTP, and 14% for AV.
Neither the Tories or Labour are fighting to get rid of FPTP so how exactly is it going to change?

If the Tories are going to keep abusing it then it needs combined  full and unequivocal support from Labour, Lib-Dem, SNP, Plaid and the other minor groups to change it.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[winjim]

Do we have to drag what some (patriachal) religion, said yay or nay in their book however so long ago, into this..

Or even the "What if your daughter, or other woman you care about was raped / suffering ectopic pregnancy/ in an abusive relationship / likely to fall into poverty with the birth of another child?" etc etc arguments*..

*Sad that it has to be a 'significant to them' female before the old thinking up device can possibly get engaged.

Can't we have clear and simple

"Our bodies our choice"
No one else's business,

And have done with it ??

View attachment 1124

TheRaDR might have some interesting points to make about Judaism and patriarchy. Seriously, I'm about as atheist as they come and she's cool AF.

https://twitter.com/TheRaDR?t=CVeSDrZEls8atb6Jr9qn8Q&s=09


You know my personal opinion. Abortion should be safe, legal and accessible. That's it. No nuance, no exceptions, no ifs, no buts, no complications. There are not many issues about which I'm confident in holding an absolutely unequivocal and extremely simplistic position, but this is one of them.

However, since it's largely supposed Christian fundamentalism which seems to be vociferously anti abortion in the US, the Jewish argument is at least interesting if nothing else.

 

[mudsticks]

TheRaDR might have some interesting points to make about Judaism and patriarchy. Seriously, I'm about as atheist as they come and she's cool AF.

https://twitter.com/TheRaDR?t=CVeSDrZEls8atb6Jr9qn8Q&s=09


You know my personal opinion. Abortion should be safe, legal and accessible. That's it. No nuance, no exceptions, no ifs, no buts, no complications. There are not many issues about which I'm confident in holding an absolutely unequivocal and extremely simplistic position, but this is one of them.

However, since it's largely supposed Christian fundamentalism which seems to be vociferously anti abortion in the US, the Jewish argument is at least interesting if nothing else.

Yup I know, and I wasn't having a go at you ..

I'm pretty sure you knew that too.

The Christian fundamentalists are a joke - an unfunny joke sadly..

Supposedly vociferously 'pro life'

Until it comes to capital punishment, lax gun laws, denying climate change, not believing in accessible medical care, childcare, and welfare for already born children (and adults).

They're not pro life at all

They're just 'pro' forced pregnancy..
And pro removing women's rights..

That's all.

 

[AuroraSaab]

TheRaDR might have some interesting points to make about Judaism and patriarchy. Seriously, I'm about as atheist as they come and she's cool AF.

https://twitter.com/TheRaDR?t=CVeSDrZEls8atb6Jr9qn8Q&s=09


You know my personal opinion. Abortion should be safe, legal and accessible. That's it. No nuance, no exceptions, no ifs, no buts, no complications. There are not many issues about which I'm confident in holding an absolutely unequivocal and extremely simplistic position, but this is one of them.

However, since it's largely supposed Christian fundamentalism which seems to be vociferously anti abortion in the US, the Jewish argument is at least interesting if nothing else.

Religion needs to be taken out of the discussion on abortion. If you give credence to the opinions of a rabbi you have to give the same weight to the opinions of a conservative Christian minister or to a fundamentalist Muslim imam. There are plenty of religious texts that forbid it.

The opinions of religious leaders on any moral issue is of relevance only to their particular band of followers and the fact that their holy book supports/forbids abortion should have no influence on either the discussion or the law, in my opinion. Sadly it does in the US, South America, and Eastern Europe.

There is some nuance in certain aspects of the abortion debate, it isn't completely simplistic in my view, but to deny women access to safe abortions completely is nothing short of barbaric. It doesn't stop abortion, it just stops safe abortions.

Edit: I'd add to this that religions, and religious texts, are mostly the construct of males so giving weight to religious teaching in this discussion is simply giving men even more of a say on a issue that is mostly of concern to women.

 

[winjim]

Religion needs to be taken out of the discussion on abortion. If you give credence to the opinions of a rabbi you have to give the same weight to the opinions of a conservative Christian minister or to a fundamentalist Muslim imam. There are plenty of religious texts that forbid it.

The opinions of religious leaders on any moral issue is of relevance only to their particular band of followers and the fact that their holy book supports/forbids abortion should have no influence on either the discussion or the law, in my opinion. Sadly it does in the US, South America, and Eastern Europe.

There is some nuance in certain aspects of the abortion debate, it isn't completely simplistic in my view, but to deny women access to safe abortions completely is nothing short of barbaric. It doesn't stop abortion, it just stops safe abortions.

Edit: I'd add to this that religions, and religious texts, are mostly the construct of males so giving weight to religious teaching in this discussion is simply giving men even more of a say on a issue that is mostly of concern to women.

I'm not sure about credence but I find the religious argument interesting. And as I said I think Danya Ruttenberg particularly would have opinions on Judaism and patriarchy. However, I do wonder if she just has a particularly liberal worldview and it's confirmation bias that leads her to find justification in scripture. I don't know, she's obviously more educated than I am in such things but it can certainly be said about a great deal of scriptural justification for all sorts of things.

If it came to pass that abortion remained legal in the US for reasons of religious freedom, that would be something to be celebrated, albeit with the caveat that a secular basis for its legalisation would be preferable and is still worth striving for.

 

[Cirrus]

That's it. No nuance, no exceptions, no ifs, no buts, no complications.

So no considerations re age of baby/foetus same approach whatever? You’d be happy for it to be treated the same if it were one week or thirty seven?

 

[winjim]

So no considerations re age of baby/foetus same approach whatever? You’d be happy for it to be treated the same if it were one week or thirty seven?

You read what I wrote. TBH I do prefer the phrase 'termination of pregnancy' to abortion though.

 

[Cirrus]

You read what I wrote.

I did which is why I asked the question

 

[icowden]

So no considerations re age of baby/foetus same approach whatever? You’d be happy for it to be treated the same if it were one week or thirty seven?

Yes, the treatment should be the same. It should be a conversation between the person carrying the baby and her medical professionals. She should receive advice and reassurance, access to medical care and/or therapy as needed, and ultimately she should be allowed to make the decision that is right for her. The nearer to term the woman is the more advice she may need to make the decision she needs to make.

Usually the big decisions are taken well before the baby is viable. With easy access to good healthcare and counselling, the best outcomes can be achieved whether that be carrying to term or termination. So let's let women decide what is right for them, and us men can reserve our concerns for our own bits and pieces.