American bombshell? Roe vs. Wade....

[Craig the cyclist]

You're clearly just trying to make trouble.

Sorry you see it that way.

Contributors have said abortion should be legal at any point. If they really mean that, then termination during labour becomes an extreme possibility.

I was wondering if that is what they really meant. That's all.

 

[mudsticks]

Sorry you see it that way.

Contributors have said abortion should be legal at any point. If they really mean that, then termination during labour becomes an extreme possibility.

I was wondering if that is what they really meant. That's all.

You think a medical practitioner would agree to that.??

You think a labouring woman would request it??

Do you really think that was what anyone was proposing?

I think that's what they call 'nonsense on stilts'

 

[AuroraSaab]

I think it would be unusual to find anyone, including women, who favour termination being allowed right up until labour just because the mother wants one. Fortunately it's not something that needs too much concern in the UK as the number of terminations at a late stage are very small and are done because the child will be severely disabled or to save the life of the mother.

"Abortions where gestation is 24 weeks or over account for a very small number of abortions (0.1% of the total). There were 236 such abortions in 2020". (Gov stats)

I agree that the UK laws strike a reasonable balance between the rights of the woman and the rights of the foetus. We are lucky that we have a decent health service, free pregnancy tests, access to scans, blood tests etc. that help make late abortions such a rarity. Plus of course, easy access to contraception in the first place.

 

[mudsticks]

For what it’s worth, I’m of the opinion that the woman has the right to choose and the UK’s 24 week cut off is about right.

My wife had a few miscarriage’s which hit her hard and we had a newborn (14 days) die from congenital issues, so whilst not the same, I am aware of the emotional load that this subject area can have.

Sorry for all your losses.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

You think a medical practitioner would agree to that.??

You think a labouring woman would request it??

Do you really think that was what anyone was proposing?

I think that's what they call 'nonsense on stilts'

Well, yes, two posters have said that abortion should be legal at any stage, follow that line and see where it goes. They have specifically not stated a time limit.

It is as extreme as "No abortion at any point", two ends of a piece of string.

I can imagine someone asking for a termination at week 38, being refused and suing, can't you? When the professional says no then they are immediately going to embroiled in a 'you have to pay all my costs' lawsuit.

Sensibly it is logical to put a week limit on the termination option, somewhere mid 20s I guess.

 

[icowden]

Sensibly it is logical to put a week limit on the termination option, somewhere mid 20s I guess.

No - sensibly it is logical to leave it up to the woman and the medical professionals involved in her care. A doctor is not going to carry out a termination in the third trimester except under the most extreme circumstances. If you are worried about quacks taking advantage, require a second medical opinion for any third trimester terminations.

In this country, women have access to healthcare and advice from health professionals. This reduces the incidence of termination much more than in backward countries like the USA where healthcare must be paid for, and those without wealth are left to use public health clinics or back street abortionists.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

No - sensibly it is logical to leave it up to the woman and the medical professionals involved in her care.

If they disagree who decides?

 

[mudsticks]

No - sensibly it is logical to leave it up to the woman and the medical professionals involved in her care. A doctor is not going to carry out a termination in the third trimester except under the most extreme circumstances. If you are worried about quacks taking advantage, require a second medical opinion for any third trimester terminations.

In this country, women have access to healthcare and advice from health professionals. This reduces the incidence of termination much more than in backward countries like the USA where healthcare must be paid for, and those without wealth are left to use public health clinics or back street abortionists.

Even an early termination requires 'approval' from two doctors.

So no, it's certainly not going to be up to just one doctor in the third trimester

I imagine in that case it's a 'team' decision, made within the usual medical ethical frameworks.

 

[AuroraSaab]

I can see Craig's point on this. If there is no legislation on the acceptable reasons for late abortion then there would be doctors who would be prepared to perform them for any reason, just as there are ones willing to perform fgm or hymen restoring surgery if it isn't illegal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59960177.amp

Most of us acknowledge that adults should in principle have autonomy over their bodies, but we routinely put legal limits on the extent of that and I think the UK stance on abortion is one area where these limits work well most of the time.

 

[Deleted member 28]

TBH I do prefer the phrase 'termination of pregnancy' to abortion though.

Why?

 

[winjim]

Why?

It seems to me to put the emphasis more towards the pregnancy and the needs of the mother, and is less emotive.

 

[mudsticks]

I can see Craig's point on this. If there is no legislation on the acceptable reasons for late abortion then there would be doctors who would be prepared to perform them for any reason, just as there are ones willing to perform fgm or hymen restoring surgery if it isn't illegal.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59960177.amp

Most of us acknowledge that adults should in principle have autonomy over their bodies, but we routinely put legal limits on the extent of that and I think the UK stance on abortion is one area where these limits work well most of the time.

But there is already legislation around this, and that's not likely to change.

It's used as a distraction in discussions around free access to safe medical care.

It seems to me to put the emphasis more towards the pregnancy and the needs of the mother, and is less emotive.

Unfortunately back to a religious person again, but someone posted this earlier elsewhere, and I thought it spoke to that hypocrisy where the anti choice lobby are so vociferous on this issue, yet strangely quiet when it comes to the welfare of the already born..

Apols for the cut and paste but I need to go harvest peas and salad, before it gets too hot. .

 

[icowden]

There is a very good take on this issue from Caitlin Moran here:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www...7?shareToken=ffdaf51ee44edb33fbf1e6b9b0de3acc

 

[AuroraSaab]

But there is already legislation around this, and that's not likely to change.

Yes there is UK legislation, and I think it strikes the right balance. Weren't the posters saying 'It should just be between the woman and her doctor' meaning that abortion shouldn't be a legal matter at all, though? That was my interpretation.

The best way to reduce abortion numbers is through sex education and easy access to free contraception.

 

[mudsticks]

There is a very good take on this issue from Caitlin Moran here:

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a64a3daa-0fca-11ec-872c-7810b420a767?shareToken=ffdaf51ee44edb33fbf1e6b9b0de3acc

This is how the majority of women feel about motherhood .
If it's not an active choice then it's no choice at all

Neither of my pregnancies was 'planned' but I found myself in a situation and state of mind where I was happy to continue them .

Now there are two young men on the planet, healthy happy and contributing in their own way to society.

But it wouldn't have been a 'bad' decision if for any of the reasons Caitlin mentions I had chosen to terminate those pregnancies .

Bringing unwanted children into the world, serves no one, least of all those kids

My midwife for my births told me that at least half of the births she attended were the result of 'unplanned' pregnancies

It happens, very regularly, even with contraception being available.

If I'd had a third child I doubt I would have now the solid businesses, and political life, that contribute to society in other ways, and which fulfil me

I just don't understand the mentality of people who want to force motherhood on the unwilling .

What's that all about??

More about control and subjugation of women I think
Under the pretence of doing 'Gods' work

There's plenty of God's work to be done among the already born, needy and disadvantaged.
Fix that oh pious 'Christians'

Or develop some tech that means an unwanted pregnancy can be transferred to a male 'anti abortion' host.

They can do the bearing and the raising.
Not only when they 'volunteer' for it of course .
Just randomly, like a 'baby' bomb dropped into their lives..

Meanwhile Women of America..

Countrywide Sex strike??
Get the 'not my problem girls' guys to take some notice..

Until all this nonsense is firmly put back into the history books where it belongs ..