Laurence Fox vs Mukhtar

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Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
The C of E say he wasn't told to sling his hook or blocked from ordination.
The bishop of Edmonton questioned whether Robinson really wanted to be parish priest or a media commentator. I think that was actually a reasonable thing to do.

The bishop of London who refused a parish was accused of being woke by Robinson because she was trotting out the 'the church is institutionally racist' line. Robinson disagreed with this and imo is in a better position to judge this than a bishop doing the white shame thing. The battle with woke is broader than this though. Various Anglican ministries I listen to have been highlighting cases where Christians have lost their jobs, even in C of E school, because they cannot in conscience go along with for example transgenderism. They are on dubious legal grounds here as religious belief is protected.
The point of Christianity (just like pretty much any religion) is to use superstition to control people. ..., but there is always a higher level that involves the people at the top having coercive control of those below,
If you go back to the defining document of Christianity you get this:
But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant ... (Matthew)

This may not always have been lived out, but it remains a foundational principle.

This happens in the secular realm as well. On the lengthy gender thread, isn't transwomen wanting to play in women's sport 'lording it over' biological women? A minority insisting on getting their own way. Not really about justice but a desire to exercise power. Or those who would like the churches' exemption on marrying homosexuals to be removed. In the name of tolerance and inclusion they are being intolerant and excluding those whose views they disagree with, and again compelling this by law is one group lording it over another. The atheistic soviet communist gentiles certainly lorded it over their population.
It requires belief in things that cannot be proven and for which there is no evidence.

Nope, to be 'properly religious' you have to have faith in unseeable unprovable entities such as God.
I shouldn't ... but I still get surprised at how often the line 'faith is believing something for which there is no evidence' is trotted out. Some religions and 'spiritualities' may be little more than superstitions, but in the case of Christianity there is a whole library of apologetic material mounting arguments for the truth and reasonableness of the faith.
Not all CofE bishops are that dogmatic (I believe that's one of Unkraut's quibbles).
I had an Anglican vicar friend years ago who was ordained in the church of England who was in ministry for 14 years as an unbeliever. When he was actually converted there was a dramatic change! He reckoned he was the only person he knew from the institution who trained him who subsequently became a believer, and wondered about all the other 8 vicars in the deanery who seemed only to be going through the motions.

I think in the case of the Robinsons of this world, and he is far from alone, they have a faith that was delivered once and for all to the saints at the beginning, and there is no liberty to change the original article, as it were. Just as you cannot rescind 'you shall not commit adultery', you cannot write prayers for the blessing of same-sex couples as the bishops are proposing, and it seems to me to be trying to impose. It's out of order, and has become a line that many in the C or E are not prepared to cross, even to maintain a fake unity. Anglicans in the global south, the majority, have also disfellowshipped the C of E for its compromise on this, together with the Archbishop of Canterbury, so Robinson is not part of a 'fringe' taking anglicanism as a whole.

Ironically I saw a YT short of Stehen Fry, who obviously disagrees with the traditional stance on homosexuality, being sad at a C of E leadership ditching centuries of tradition simply to go with the flow of modern society. Throwing away their convictions.
 
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icowden

Legendary Member
Ironically I saw a YT short of Stehen Fry, who obviously disagrees with the traditional stance on homosexuality, being sad at a C of E leadership ditching centuries of tradition simply to go with the flow of modern society. Throwing away their convictions.
How do you feel about stoning women to death, and killing people who do stuff on Sundays?

Or should those traditions be brought back as well?

The references to homosexuality being against god are tenuous to say the least, and didn't appear until about 1946:-

Further, as Oxford shares with Forge, a nonprofit organization that "that creates space for post-evangelical conversations, which includes tools and resources for lgbtq+ inclusion in the church," "...we went to Leviticus 18:22 and [the translator is] translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says, 'Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,' the German version says, 'Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with a woman, for it is an abomination.' I said, 'What?! Are you sure?' He said, 'Yes!" Then we went to Leviticus 20:13-- same thing, 'Young boys.' So we went to 1 Corinthians to see how they translated arsenokoitai (original Greek word) and instead of homosexuals it said, 'Boy molesters will not inherit the kingdom of God.'"

So it all depends on how you translate one word.
 

matticus

Guru
I presume you mean Stewart, not our old mate Stuey.

stuart /stewart is one of those spellings where I know FULL WELL there are two options, but I reeeeeally struggle to remember any individual's chosen option.🤦‍♀️
(and they really need to standardise on the [C|K] atharine thing, just ridiculous ... )
 

Unkraut

Master of the Inane Comment
Location
Germany
How do you feel about stoning women to death, and killing people who do stuff on Sundays?

Or should those traditions be brought back as well?
These penalties were under the mosaic law. This was given to the Jews only, and was never imposed on Gentiles.

It has been superceded by the new covenant (testament). The moral law continues - namely what is right or wrong, the law against stealing adultery greed etc, but the penalties, ceremonial and dietary law no longer apply. Hence accusations of hypocrisy regarding mixed fibres and eating shellfish are null and void.
The references to homosexuality being against god are tenuous to say the least, and didn't appear until about 1946:-
Not true. The moral law covers this:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. ... If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. Leviticus

The Hebrew is unambiguous. When it was translated into Greek around 270 BC the expression lies with a male or beds a male is arsenokoites, except in verbal form, to bed a man.

So it all depends on how you translate one word.
The one word in question is arsenkoites, used twice in the NT. You cannot use the German translation, with which I am familiar(!) to ascertain the meanng. You have to go back to the Greek OT to get the derivation and meaning, this is the origin of the term.

The RSV 1946 edition, about which a film has been made but I'm not sure if released yet, translated it as homosexuals. The 1971 revised edition which I know well changed this to sexual perverts, which when it was published was in line with current usage in English, albeit not very exact. There is another word used together with arsenokoites, malakoi, meaning soft men, men who wear fine rainment, effeminate. Most modern standard versions translate the passage either as the effeminate and homosexuals, or just those who practise homosexuality, referring to the active and passive partners.

The thesis of the film that something nefarious went on with the first edition of the RSV won't stand scrutiny. I have no doubt though that the denizens of social media will unquestioningly accept it, and you will see tirades or the sort 'these FOOLS and BIGOTS don't even know the meaning of their own HOLY BOOK'!
 

Mr Celine

Well-Known Member
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. ... If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

Yet it didn't even make the top 10 of shalt nots.
Behind such dreadful behaviour as forgetting to send a mother's day card or admiring next door's Audi.
 
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