Trans athletes in sport....

[AuroraSaab]

"There must be fairness to both trans and biological females. They must each have their own category so each group can enjoy fair competition on an equal basis. The field in the trans group will be smaller. If the motive to compete is genuine, competing fairly without a circus of discord is surely preferable. It would allow trans athletes to enjoy sport without distraction."

There just aren't enough trans athletes to make a meaningful competition. You would end up with either no entrants or, say, an event with entrants who were not in any way elite athletes but qualified simply because they were transgender. Plus, there would issues around testosterone levels as not all entrants might be on testosterone or female hormones.

Added to this, those women athletes who are transitioning to male have shown no inclination to take part in the Men's class events. They seem happy enough in the female category, but instead would be forced into a category based on the nebulous concept of gender identity rather than the material reality of biological bodies. (The only exception I can think of is US High school wrestler Mack Beggs who wanted to wrestle in the male class).

 

[BoldonLad]

Well thankyou for your excellent summary in the first para - but I don't really agree with the 2nd one. I'll quote Ms Cooke, who has already done her homework:
"
Sport centres on fair competition among equals. Ask a welterweight which he would be more proud of – ten wins against a flyweight or one against another welterweight. If my cycling hero Pippa had transitioned when she was still competing and I had met her when I was the world's number one female road cyclist, I doubt there would have been a competition. I would very likely have been the flyweight sent to the canvas in the first round.

There must be fairness to both trans and biological females. They must each have their own category so each group can enjoy fair competition on an equal basis. The field in the trans group will be smaller. If the motive to compete is genuine, competing fairly without a circus of discord is surely preferable. It would allow trans athletes to enjoy sport without distraction.
"

Wouldn't that have to be a group for every subdivision, not just trans and biological females (just using your terms, no idea if they are acceptable)?, in which case there would be a multitude of groups.

So far, it would appear to me, the discussion has been slanted toward what competitors may want, and, the none professional aspect of sport. Wouldn't the view of fans/spectators also be relevant, particularly if money is involved, how many people are going to pay to see (say) a race, with only two competitors?

 

[Deleted member 28]

I'd like to inaugurate the Bonio Award, a dog biscuit (in honour of shep's GOAT performances) prize for posters rocking up to a thread to bemoan its pointlessness.

View attachment 957​

Round of applause for spen.

This is a competition in which men, women, trans-women, trans-men and gammons can all compete on an equal footing.

​

You after that 'funny as Cancer award' again?😴

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I don’t think I’m alone in being the opposite of that.

Which of the fundamental topics that have been discussed on this forum have you pivoted your point of view on?

Brexit, trans-sport, Covid policy, immigration, political belief, tell us something where you fundamentally believed A and now, as a result of engagement on this forum and some research you now believe Z on the same topic. I can't think of anyone on here who has shown the slightest inclination to change their core belief on something.

 

[AndyRM]

Which of the fundamental topics that have been discussed on this forum have you pivoted your point of view on?

Brexit, trans-sport, Covid policy, immigration, political belief, tell us something where you fundamentally believed A and now, as a result of engagement on this forum and some research you now believe Z on the same topic. I can't think of anyone on here who has shown the slightest inclination to change their core belief on something.

I wouldn't have said I've swung that drastically, but there have been certain posts on here, and in the old place, have given me an alternative viewpoint, which I've appreciated.

Realistically it would take something pretty drastic for me to change my opinion on something, and that's not likely to happen on an internet forum, more like real life.

To provide an example, I never really thought privilege was a thing, by virtue of me presenting as a tall, intimidating looking, straight, white bloke. It wasn't until the first of several incidents with an ex that I totally changed my opinion; it's very real.

 

[newfhouse]

Which of the fundamental topics that have been discussed on this forum have you pivoted your point of view on?

I posted in this thread, the one about trans inclusion in elite sport.

I didn’t claim to have pivoted, not least because I didn’t start from a firm view at either end of the inclusivity-fairness continuum. I would say that my initial tendency to favour inclusivity has been moved more towards fairness as a result of reading here and elsewhere. I feel I’m still on shifting ground though, so there is scope for well argued points to lead me more one way than the other.

I believe I have a similar approach to the other topics you asked me about. Fair warning though, you will need to present compelling evidence if you wish to persuade me I’m wrong about Brexit or the Tories. I’ve seen nothing that leads me to think you’re up to the task.

 

[qigong chimp]

You after that 'funny as Cancer award' again?😴

Your "Funny as Cancer" awards are the Baftas.
My "Bonios" are the Oscars.
Deal with it.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I’ve seen nothing that leads me to think you’re up to the task.

To be honest, I wouldn't even try and change your mind. Why would I?

My question related to you saying this

I don’t think I’m alone in being the opposite of that.

in answer to this

Each party has entrenched views and wants to denounce other views and are not prepared to change their minds.

then you tell us that you haven't pivoted on anything at all! Which sort of proves my point!

There are plenty on here who have said lots of times that they enjoy being challenged and hearing alternative viewpoints as it makes them think. Then they put everyone with an alternative viewpoint on ignore and continue in their echo chamber

 

[AndyRM]

My ignore list is fallow. Always has been, though I've been sorely tempted at times.

But again, we're just going in circles, in a thread which has (once again) made me consider my stance.

In any case, it's possible to accept someone else's viewpoint and disagree with it and not have to change your own. That's not being 'entrenched' for me, it's about accepting that things aren't black and white, and a spectrum of views exists.

 

[Deleted member 28]

Your "Funny as Cancer" awards are the Baftas.
My "Bonios" are the Oscars.
Deal with it.

You've got no chance of winning either from what I've seen.

 

[qigong chimp]

You've got no chance of winning either from what I've seen.

Boldonlad is loyal, I'll give you that.
But he's not the Academy.

 

[newfhouse]

then you tell us that you haven't pivoted on anything at all!

I responded to @spen666 . It was you that introduced pivoting.

Then they put everyone with an alternative viewpoint on ignore

I have never done that.

 

[Craig the cyclist]

I have never done that.

I didn't say you had

 

[newfhouse]

I didn't say you had

I didn’t say you had.

 

[icowden]

I didn’t say you had.

I didn't say you had

I didn't say either of you had.

Do I win?