War with Russia

[the snail]

So it gets decided on the battlefield.....more arms please.

So Adam, what would you suggest the Ukrainians should compromise on?

 

[Deleted member 49]

So Adam, what would you suggest the Ukrainians should compromise on?

I'd prefer anything other than more bloodshed...I'd like to be at least as enthusiastic about trying for peace talks as we seem to be about arms.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I'd prefer anything other than more bloodshed...I'd like to be at least as enthusiastic about trying for peace talks as we seem to be about arms.

The aggressor could cease hostilities and withdraw from Ukraine at any time.

Until then Ukraine is justified in defending itself with whatever arms it can get.

 

[Deleted member 49]

The aggressor could cease hostilities and withdraw from Ukraine at any time.

Until then Ukraine is justified in defending itself with whatever arms it can get.

Yeah I have noticed thanks...but do you see a end to this ?
Because I question things doesn't mean I'm pro Putin,but do you see Putin/Russia withdrawing.

 

[Rusty Nails]

Yeah I have noticed thanks...but do you see a end to this ?
Because I question things doesn't mean I'm pro Putin,but do you see Putin/Russia withdrawing.

It's so easy for us on the sideline, who are not having our lands stolen and citizens/family members killed, to decide the best way for those involved to stop it.

I doubt whether there is anyone on this forum who believes that negotiation is not the best, and probably only way, to finally stop it without dragging on for years and killing even more people. What this must mean is that it will more likely than not to lead to a lasting peace settlement and that the victim nation must not think they have been shafted, both by the aggressor and 'allies' who are suffering from compassion fatigue, because that will just simmer and boil over again one day.

Even behind the rhetoric I am sure Putin and Zelensky realise this but in the heat of war will not admit it. I am certain that there are discussions between both sides and their 'friendly' nations about the need for some sort of peace talks but I doubt that these are going to be made public, especially while one side is using its military might to destroy the infrastructure of the other.

The sad thing is there is no win/win solution...both sides have lost already.

 

[All uphill]

Yeah I have noticed thanks...but do you see a end to this ?
Because I question things doesn't mean I'm pro Putin,but do you see Putin/Russia withdrawing.

That's one of the difficulties in this situation. If Putin withdraws, after so many Russian lives lost, he will look weak and probably be toppled and end up like Gaddafi. If Zelensky cedes territory there is no guarantee that Putin won't be back for more.

Immediate accession to NATO might give Ukraine some security, but would heighten tensions in Russia.

 

[Deleted member 49]

That's one of the difficulties in this situation. If Putin withdraws, after so many Russian lives lost, he will look weak and probably be toppled and end up like Gaddafi. If Zelensky cedes territory there is no guarantee that Putin won't be back for more.

Immediate accession to NATO might give Ukraine some security, but would heighten tensions in Russia.

Gaddafi wasn't toppled by his own people.The US decided to back the rebels in Libya and Syria.Russia backed the Syrian government and opposed the toppling of Gaddafi.
Was the US or us ever really concerned about oppressive regimes for the right reasons ? Or just trying to get the attention/oil/arms sales of the Saudis.
Sorry doom and gloom ! It's nearly time for Santa have a good one ! All the best.

 

[Unkraut]

It's nearly time for Santa have a good one ! All the best.

Yes, he's just finished here so deliveries in the UK should be starting any minute now ...

 

[Rusty Nails]

Yes, he's just finished here so deliveries in the UK should be starting any minute now ...

Have a good Christmas everyone.

Too much on with a full house to sign on here for the next couple of days.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

It may seem to "non aligned" countries that Putin is sticking it to the west in this war, but they should realise that China/Russia/India will not be any better masters than the US/Europe were.

Leaving aside it might be considered condescending to suppose countries non-aligned to the West in this fight are blind to the possibility that China or India could be just as imperialistic in future (but who knows?), can you blame them, given the incomparable history of colonising, enslaving, genocide of and war waging on foreigners in remote, foreign lands by the backers of Team Ukraine?

There is actually a school of thought (or a hypothesis) that says this sad history has its roots in Christianity, where the good vs evil binary world view, and the righteousness of missions or crusades against non-believers writ large, subconsciously and pervasively (the battle cry of “democracy vs autocracy” today can perhaps be exhibit 1!), all the while they are but a thin, false moral cover on self-righteousness, greed, and hypocrisy. Afaict, such Christian modus operandi are indeed alien, if not abhorrent, to Buddhism, Confucianism or Taoism, the main ancient Eastern religions / philosophies.

Perhaps, on the eve of Xmas, it could be an interesting thought experiment for some to try seeing opposing parties are seldom, if ever, either good or evil?

 

[C R]

Leaving aside it might be considered condescending to suppose countries non-aligned to the West in this fight are blind to the possibility that China or India could be just as imperialistic in future (but who knows?), can you blame them, given the incomparable history of colonising, enslaving, genocide of and war waging on foreigners in remote, foreign lands by the backers of Team Ukraine?

There is actually a school of thought (or a hypothesis) that says this sad history has its roots in Christianity, where the good vs evil binary world view, and the righteousness of missions or crusades against non-believers writ large, subconsciously and pervasively (the battle cry of “democracy vs autocracy” today can perhaps be exhibit 1!), all the while they are but a thin, false moral cover on self-righteousness, greed, and hypocrisy. Afaict, such Christian modus operandi are indeed alien, if not abhorrent, to Buddhism, Confucianism or Taoism, the main ancient Eastern religions / philosophies.

Perhaps, on the eve of Xmas, it could be an interesting thought experiment for some to try seeing opposing parties are seldom, if ever, either good or evil?

I think you are romantisicing oriental faiths. The Chinese, and Indians, are rather racist towards black people, and Hinduism and Islam are every bit as exclusivist as Christianity.

We are all humans, and humans seem to just generally be shites to the out groups.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Leaving aside it might be considered condescending to suppose countries non-aligned to the West in this fight are blind to the possibility that China or India could be just as imperialistic in future (but who knows?), can you blame them, given the incomparable history of colonising, enslaving, genocide of and war waging on foreigners in remote, foreign lands by the backers of Team Ukraine?

There is actually a school of thought (or a hypothesis) that says this sad history has its roots in Christianity, where the good vs evil binary world view, and the righteousness of missions or crusades against non-believers writ large, subconsciously and pervasively (the battle cry of “democracy vs autocracy” today can perhaps be exhibit 1!), all the while they are but a thin, false moral cover on self-righteousness, greed, and hypocrisy. Afaict, such Christian modus operandi are indeed alien, if not abhorrent, to Buddhism, Confucianism or Taoism, the main ancient Eastern religions / philosophies.

Perhaps, on the eve of Xmas, it could be an interesting thought experiment for some to try seeing opposing parties are seldom, if ever, either good or evil?

Don't think Christmass eve was the most suitable to remind you it was Russian military ''strategy'' to rape, murder and commit other warcrimes to civilians in Bucha and probably lots of other places yet to be discovered. Or how some of them are already rallying to invade Latvia and or Poland next. (sure given their current ''succes'' it's unlikely to happen and it are also minority voices saying that but it indicates their way of thinking)
Oh and then we have the former Georgian president who is left to die in horrific circumstances because Putin installed a pro Russian government..


You're correct it's not them it's us, it's all western values, because of we where half like them, Nato would have done a lot more invading and things like that.

 

[C R]

Don't think Christmass eve was the most suitable to remind you it was Russian military ''strategy'' to rape, murder and commit other warcrimes to civilians in Bucha and probably lots of other places yet to be discovered. Or how some of them are already rallying to invade Latvia and or Poland next. (sure given their current ''succes'' it's unlikely to happen and it are also minority voices saying that but it indicates their way of thinking)
Oh and then we have the former Georgian president who is left to die in horrific circumstances because Putin installed a pro Russian government..


You're correct it's not them it's us, it's all western values, because of we where half like them, Nato would have done a lot more invading and things like that.

The west do a fair bit of invading, just that it is usually of people who aren't quite like us, so sympathy tends to be lacking. That's why we shouldn't be surprised that a large part of the world's population shrug their shoulders and go "meh, nobody cares when it happens to us, why should we care now".

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

The west do a fair bit of invading, just that it is usually of people who aren't quite like us, so sympathy tends to be lacking. That's why we shouldn't be surprised that a large part of the world's population shrug their shoulders and go "meh, nobody cares when it happens to us, why should we care now".

I'm not condoming any military operations off the west,(however i do beleive some conflicts in the middle east and other countries would have turned out nastier without involvement.) however there is an big difference, where as the west doesn't order their solders to target, rape and kill civilians as part of their ''strategy'' (mind you i don't say it doesn't happen, it does sadly, but *if* it can be proven western soldiers face prosecutiong for things like that.)
Russian army is different that's why in for Example Syria you didn't see the ''meh, nobody cares'' but they where celebrating when they see Russians being defeaten, russians airplanes being taken down and such. Because they known the terror the Russian army brings.

 

[Salty seadog]

These critics of Putin are a clumsy lot, always failing out of Windows in other countries.

C&P as its on the C&P as its on the grauniad live feed and posting from there doesn't last.

Russian tycoon who criticised Ukraine invasion falls to death from window​

A Russian sausage tycoon who reportedly criticised the war in Ukraine has died after falling from the third-floor window of a luxury hotel in India.
The body of Pavel Antov, 65, was discovered on Saturday outside his lodgings in eastern Odisha state, where he was on holiday with three other Russian nationals.
His death came just two days after his friend and another local Russian politician, Vladimir Bidenov, was found dead in the same hotel after an apparent heart attack.
Indian police are investigating Antov’s death, authorities confirmed. They told AFP news agency that so far there was no sign of foul play.
Regional police chief Rajesh Pandit said:

All possible angles as regards to the deaths of two Russian nationals are being verified.

Bidenov’s heart attack had probably been caused by binge drinking and a possible drug overdose, he said.
The police chief added:

So far it seems that Antov accidentally fell from the hotel terrace. He was probably disturbed by the death of his friend and went to the hotel terrace and likely fell to his death from there.

Antov was a member of Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party and a multimillionaire, having founded one of Russia’s largest sausage makers.
His death is the latest in a series of sudden unexplained deaths involving Russian businessmen, many of whom have openly criticised the war in Ukraine.
In June, Antov was accused of criticising Russia’s war in Ukraine after a message appeared on his WhatsApp account describing a Russian missile bombardment on Ukraine as “terrorism”.
Antov denied writing the message, insisting he supported Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine.
Last Updated: 14:19
1h ago
Isobel Koshiw

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