Rusty Nails
Country Member
I look forward to the result of the Indian authorities' thorough investigation into the possibility of covert Russian involvement in these tragic accidents/incidents.
War with Russia
- Thread starter Milzy
- Start date
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Salty seadog
Senior Member
albion
Guru
https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/87303
The juggling continues.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64099388.amp
The juggling continues.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64099388.amp
albion
Guru
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/64189366.amp
It really does remind me of Brexit when the BBC steered clear of stating the obvious.
These days you need an OK IQ to understand what the BBC is saying.
It really does remind me of Brexit when the BBC steered clear of stating the obvious.
These days you need an OK IQ to understand what the BBC is saying.
D
Deleted member 49
Guest
Meanwhile are good friends the Americans ramp up the war rhetoric with China ! Surrounding China with military bases and weapons, and saying China will ‘initiate hostilities’
https://www.ft.com/content/bf5362de-60a6-4181-8c2a-56b50be61383
https://www.ft.com/content/bf5362de-60a6-4181-8c2a-56b50be61383
multitool
Guest
It is possible to view this dispassionately and without the need to invoke polarised notions of good and evil, right and wrong. Both countries are playing the same old game of trying to project power and influence. A resurgent and economically strong China wishes to develop a blue water navy and push the US out of its back yard, and push itself onto other nations' front lawns. A slowly declining US is trying to work out how to maintain the economic strength it has, in part off the back of cheap Chinese labour, whilst not further enriching China. Conflict is inevitable in one form or another. Clearly all eyes on Taiwan and its bounty of semiconductor manufacture. How you feel about this depends on who you are and where you are. I doubt the Japanese are particularly chuffed. Gil Scott Heron's B Movie comes to mind.
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D
Deleted member 49
Guest
Who's saying good and evil ? I'm against war or threats from either side.Let's hope its as you say and it's just a game of power and influence.
Meanwhile NATO feels like bolstering their resilience...
View: https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1612770734719352832?t=yI_LvOe4OivULUs_s_td6A&s=19
multitool
Guest
If you think back to 2016, one of the more rabid talking points of the Brexiteers was that the EU planned to form an "EU Army", followed by exclamations along the lines of "we never signed up to that", and invocations of the Evil Empire from Star Wars.
The reality was more prosaic, and more frightening. The EU recognised that they could no longer entrust their security to the Americans, both in terms of increasing US isolationism (see the Trump years, and the revelation that he planned to pull the US out of NATO) but also with US as a declining power. This dawning realisation was not limited purely to defence and was a prime motivation for the EU to start developing their own structures, abilities and institutions (Gallileo is a good example).
Trump is gone, but the fundamentals remain, brought sharply into focus by aggressive Russian expansionism.
The reality was more prosaic, and more frightening. The EU recognised that they could no longer entrust their security to the Americans, both in terms of increasing US isolationism (see the Trump years, and the revelation that he planned to pull the US out of NATO) but also with US as a declining power. This dawning realisation was not limited purely to defence and was a prime motivation for the EU to start developing their own structures, abilities and institutions (Gallileo is a good example).
Trump is gone, but the fundamentals remain, brought sharply into focus by aggressive Russian expansionism.
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dutchguylivingintheuk
Über Member
The plans of a EU army still haven't gone but gained their momentum after Brexit, after there was criticism on the EU because in the fractions of the EU lobbying for amongst other things and EU army, if there are problems within the EU we need more EU. (who ever heard about solving problems right?) The term ''united states of europe'' comes from the same fraction. I known it sounds better to frame it on some populist but that would be wrong information.
Funny enough that same fraction tried under the false pretense of making the eu more democratic to gain more momentum before current EU president von der Leyen was chosen.(anything but democratic) and with that replaced some high influential puppets crying about a eu army. (alltough France President Macron is also for)
Where do you get that nonsense from? Ever heard of Norstream 1 and 2? Those project proceded because the EU was tone deaf, looked happyliy the other way for years. And when Trump, yes that same Trump you talk about criticized them for then Nortstream 1 and eu countries not keeping up with Nato payments he was ridiculised, laughed at etc. And while i think there are plenty of reasons to ridicule or laugh at Trump he had a point here. (and yes that was actually one of the triggers for the calls of an EU army, mind you that didn't stop eu countries from cutting their defense budgets.)
With Gallileo your totally of the mark, the project was announced in 1996 yes 1996! as a response on Bill Clintons decision to not share certain selective precision aspects of the then relatively new GPS system. That on itself shows why any EU army is an bad idea.
The EU never recognised anything, we got a rude awakening last year but Putin was allowed to bully, attack and install puppet governments in neighboring countries for years. Where lucky Russia is so corrupt meaning that 90% of their claims turn out to be 40% true, otherwise they would have been on Poland's borders by now.
Trump has been president for only 4 years, in which he barked a lot but did very little(as in foreign policy), because his election pledge was not to start a war. Clinton's, Bush and Obama's policy's have had far more influence on Putin as well as the steady flow of money from Western gas and oil purchases. As west we have to stop pointing at the populist and realize the monster in Moscow is bolstered by ourselves.
multitool
Guest
I personally know one of the former key players in the Galileo project, a Professor of Geodysy. I say former because he is no longer involved because of Brexit. Want to tell him he is wrong about the origins of the project? I'm sure you know best.
Likewise, there is plenty of documentation about the shifting sands of European defence. The US has for years criticised EU NATO countries for law %GDP spending in defence, Trump made it explicit. Everybody knows NATO will not last forever, and whilst a standing EU Army is not on the cards yet, the thought processes that will lead to one are occurring.
Likewise, there is plenty of documentation about the shifting sands of European defence. The US has for years criticised EU NATO countries for law %GDP spending in defence, Trump made it explicit. Everybody knows NATO will not last forever, and whilst a standing EU Army is not on the cards yet, the thought processes that will lead to one are occurring.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Über Member
Well supply those fact to Wikipedia to have it edited if your so sure. However i have a paper enclopedia here (yes that old fashion) that says the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)
Considering how the Us for years also was one of the largest controbutors to NATO their criticism is justified. If you agree on a certain percentage, then you have to stick with it. I beleive the call was on NATO countries not NATO EU countries specific. Alltough much if not all EU countries are also Nato members. And a country like Turkey doesn't need reminders for military spending because just like for example the us the military is a strong part of culture.
An EU army on the contrary would more likely become a politicall ballgame, as we have seen from the past 70 years of eu and it precessors so how would that be a good thing?
multitool
Guest
Did you even read the Wiki page you cited?
"European Union member states decided it was important to have a satellite-based positioning and timing infrastructure that the US could not easily turn off in times of political conflict"
As for the putative EU army, I haven't offered any sort of value judgement. I've merely posited that it is symptomatic of a recognition of declining US power, and the perceived need for an eventual alternative. I think this is blindingly obvious, and hardly a radical view.
"European Union member states decided it was important to have a satellite-based positioning and timing infrastructure that the US could not easily turn off in times of political conflict"
As for the putative EU army, I haven't offered any sort of value judgement. I've merely posited that it is symptomatic of a recognition of declining US power, and the perceived need for an eventual alternative. I think this is blindingly obvious, and hardly a radical view.
dutchguylivingintheuk
Über Member
Yes i did, that's why i said the decision to come with galileo was based upon a us policy change, under Clinton, particular quote ''Galileo is intended to be an EU civilian GNSS that allows all users access to it. Initially GPS reserved the highest quality signal for military use, and the signal available for civilian use was intentionally degraded (Selective Availability). This changed with President Bill Clinton signing a policy directive in 1996 to turn off Selective Availability. '' end quote. Your quote seems to be related to that
Back the the original point, you claimed it as the EU recognizing in 2016! that they no longer could trust the US, as clearly shown above this predates 2016 and i think full trust in the US both due to their political system(with the whole government often changing if it switches from democrats to republicans or vice versa after elections) is a bit silly. And despite the us dollar still being the ''reserve currency'' i don't believe that full trust in the US was ever there. The US economy is and was simply to big to seek and replacement. China is now well on its way to have that scale to be the replacement, i just don't think many countries nato or otherwise or to inclined to replace the US dollar for China's Yen for obvious reasons.
the whole point of Nato was to take away the incentive for evil countries to attack Nato members because it's not just one country your fighting but a whole lot of them, but on the other site make it less of an incentive for nato countries to attack eachtother as they train/plan etc. together. Which worked fine for Nato countries. Not so much for Russia's alternative
Ok, i don't agree with you on that point, in terms of i think the calls for an EU army are completely separate from the Us. seems to be mainly politicians on a power trip in my view, looking to distract from the realities of the European dream, especially at that time not panning out like expected, so then gripping to more control instead of being more open. (a good example is a dutch channel/weblog then went to film EU officials abusing a certain sign in bonus of think it was 400€ instead of stopping the practice the EU forbade media to be able to film said practice. )
Which is kind of sad really because i think the eu could have been so much better if it was open, transparent and completely elected, instead of the corrupt structure that only servers big money lobbies it has become right now.
Both covid the pandemic and the Russia war seem to have moved this topic a bit more to the background. As it has shown the importance of national armies.(
