War with Russia

[Ian H]

As usual, I welcome any comment proving me wrong with facts and logic.

Are you the only one who's allowed to belittle and insult?

 

[theclaud]

Are you the only one who's allowed to belittle and insult?

Don't be silly. Have you not met @multitool?

 

[Ian H]

Don't be silly. Have you not met @multitool?

Hmmm... you've got me thinking. Are they one and the same person?

 

[albion]

No he claims that mainly to appease those in his own country, but if their army get's beaten by a much smaller army with only a few Nato hardware.. how will he have a chance in a WW3 conflict? He might have Iran and such as allies but China already opted out.

But Russians love to fantasies how they can level the us and uk with nukes, totally forgetting that both the uk, us/nato will watch them, they won't have the chance to launch an nuclear missile especially not one with the range of getting close to either the us or uk. (separate from the fact that claimed Russian range is something else than actual range.)

Lots of Africa is embracing China and Russia. India is close to Russia. South and North America are moving far right, often embracing dictators.slovakia has just moved to a 'populist' regime that embraces Russia whilst dismantling democratic channels.
And Trump chucking Europe under a bus for Russia must be even bets.

Everything alludes to ww3 hitting us within a decade. It does not help that other allies like Israel jumped on the extremist populist bandwagon. Democracy is also rather stupidly treated as a fashion.

 

[the snail]

Oh dear. You again.

Is international politics like a game of battleship in your head? With Genocide Joe on one side vs Hitler Reincarnate on the other perhaps?

Or is it Peace Loving World Policeman Joe vs Hitler Reincarnate?

I....

Lol you are the one who keeps harping on about the US.
They both have their faults, but at the end of the day I'd take Biden as my head of state - at least you can criticise him, or campaign in opposition without being arrested/beaten up/poisoned or falling out of a window. I don't see how Putin has been demonised - his actions speak for themselves. I'm surprised that anyone on here would be so ready to trot out the classic justificationj for totalitarian regimes - who cares about the Uyghurs, Jews, Palestinians as long as it works for the rest?

 

[farfromtheland]

Lol you are the one who keeps harping on about the US.
They both have their faults, but at the end of the day I'd take Biden as my head of state - at least you can criticise him, or campaign in opposition without being arrested/beaten up/poisoned or falling out of a window. I don't see how Putin has been demonised - his actions speak for themselves. I'm surprised that anyone on here would be so ready to trot out the classic justificationj for totalitarian regimes - who cares about the Uyghurs, Jews, Palestinians as long as it works for the rest?

Remember Jack Kennedy? Martin Luther King? Even if you don't reckon CIA machinations were involved you can bet your bottom dollar they could have prevented these assassinations if they chose.

I would also say that if we justify opposition to Putin on the grounds of his bad actions we are obliged not to act dishonourably, otherwise we can no longer claim the high ground.

Have you considered the possibility that ideological obedience is a price worth paying if the ideology works 'for the people'?

That is Singapore I think, but more importantly China since Deng till today imho.

In case this joke is new to you - in Western democracies every few years the ruling party changes but the policies remain the same, while in China... - you can guess the punchline. I mention this for all those who think China just got lucky to become the world's largest economy, while somehow India e.g. didn't even come close.

No system is ever perfect, but is an ideology that has the pursuit of what's best for the people as its top, 2nd and 3rd objective still an ideology? Can such an ideology/system with such objectives and an institution continuously honed to achieve it be illegitimate?

The irony is probably too subtle for most, is it not paradoxical that most in the West (and pretty sure the vast majority of posters here) believe anything but liberal democracy is ideologically retarded? It is certainly what the neocons have crusaded for, to kill if necessary, for decades. How has it worked out, domestically and internationally? Objectively, how has "by the people" been working out "for the people"?

Who is ignorant of the other, in truth? Or is xenophobia the root of the issue?

As usual, I welcome any comment proving me wrong with facts and logic.

I have indeed considered this.

I have friends who were apologists for the USSR up until Gorbachev. However though they bought Ladas they were careful to pick which 5 yearly version had the least design flaws.

Have you read Alexander Berkman's 'The Russian Tragedy' ?
I can understand/forgive Lenin's takeover of the dithering soviet assemblies after the revolution but I cannot stomach the Red Army's extermination of the Kronstadt sailors - who were merely calling for the original manifesto of the revolution, workers' and peasants' control through soviets - and the travesties that followed. After 1921 the revolution was done over. I think history bears me out to the extent (greatly simplified narrative here) that oligarchy ultimately prevailed.

The Chinese situation is interesting. I shared a house with a Chinese student whose parents were involved in the current regime. I could be wrong, but I don't think China's communist regime ever had pretensions towards democratic federalism soviet-style, it is unashamedly centralist, and cleverer with it. The 'Cultural Revolution' was disgusting but not contradictory. Central control tended to alleviate, rather than promote, famines. And it tends to promote industrial productive success.

This is not to excuse forced abortions, or cultural wipeout in Tibet and oppression of the Uyghurs, though the second two issues are complicated by religion.

China may promote greener energy eventually, but probably far to late for good sense though - this is the main problem. I dare say federalist libertarian communism would do better.

The trouble with libertarian communism is that it eschews ingrained power. All those who like ingrained power tend to use it for its own ends.

 

[the snail]

Remember Jack Kennedy? Martin Luther King? Even if you don't reckon CIA machinations were involved you can bet your bottom dollar they could have prevented these assassinations if they chose.

....

You don't need to look for conspiracy theories, there are plenty of examples of appalling behaviour by the US or other western nations, e.g. Chile, Iran, Iraq. None of that excuses Russia's actions in Ukraine or makes Putin anything other than a murderous autocrat.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

Are you the only one who's allowed to belittle and insult?

Is your short term memory failing?

I'd MUCH rather discuss politics - but somehow people like you and the snail can't stop making ad hominem remarks, and in your case with zero subject substance attached. Why is that?

Are you the snail's mother? Or are you ideologically opposed to my political arguments YET unable to identify any logical, factual argument against?

If you have nothing worthwhile to say, you don't have to say anything, you know.

Lol you are the one who keeps harping on about the US.
They both have their faults, but at the end of the day I'd take Biden as my head of state - at least you can criticise him, or campaign in opposition without being arrested/beaten up/poisoned or falling out of a window. I don't see how Putin has been demonised - his actions speak for themselves. I'm surprised that anyone on here would be so ready to trot out the classic justificationj for totalitarian regimes - who cares about the Uyghurs, Jews, Palestinians as long as it works for the rest?

I don't know what makes you fail to see which mass murderer you prefer to be your head of state is irrelevant to this debate.

Back to the subject of demonisation. Let's try a simple thought experiment - do you think Putin periodically and publicly calling Biden a demonstrable retard personally responsible for the murder of 25,000 children in broad daylight is conducive to world peace, or might it just nudge us a bit closer to WW3?

This is not to excuse forced abortions, or cultural wipeout in Tibet and oppression of the Uyghurs, though the second two issues are complicated by religion.

China may promote greener energy eventually, but probably far to late for good sense though - this is the main problem. I dare say federalist libertarian communism would do better.

The trouble with libertarian communism is that it eschews ingrained power. All those who like ingrained power tend to use it for its own ends.

Think you have just proved that your view of China is seriously twisted, possibly due to the same Kool-Aid that says Russia was unprovoked and Israel is the victim... Not blaming you personally if you never got round to do your own investigation - most in the West are in exactly the same boat.

I haven't got time to give you counter arguments on every issue, and frankly IME confirmation bias meant there is no substitute for people fact finding for themselves, and to resolve counter-intuitive messages in their own mind. But this one is just simple data - in real terms China's investment in renewable energy exceeds the rest of the world combined, and this outperformance is expected to increase even more for the foreseeable future.

If you are so inclined, even if you were to ignore the economical, technological and industrial miracles, why not try to square how virtually every message from Western politicians or mass media on China has a negative spin, when meanwhile in all likelihood people in China are the happiest in the world, and trust their government more than any other nationality?

 

[Ian H]

Is your short term memory failing?

I'd MUCH rather discuss politics - but somehow people like you and the snail can't stop making ad hominem remarks, and in your case with zero subject substance attached. Why is that?

Are you the snail's mother? Or are you ideologically opposed to my political arguments YET unable to identify any logical, factual argument against?

If you have nothing worthwhile to say, you don't have to say anything, you know.



I don't know what makes you fail to see which mass murderer you prefer to be your head of state is irrelevant to this debate.

Back to the subject of demonisation. Let's try a simple thought experiment - do you think Putin periodically and publicly calling Biden a demonstrable retard personally responsible for the murder of 25,000 children in broad daylight is conducive to world peace, or might it just nudge us a bit closer to WW3?



Think you have just proved that your view of China is seriously twisted, possibly due to the same Kool-Aid that says Russia was unprovoked and Israel is the victim... Not blaming you personally if you never got round to do your own investigation - most in the West are in exactly the same boat.

I haven't got time to give you counter arguments on every issue, and frankly IME confirmation bias meant there is no substitute for people fact finding for themselves, and to resolve counter-intuitive messages in their own mind. But this one is just simple data - in real terms China's investment in renewable energy exceeds the rest of the world combined, and this outperformance is expected to increase even more for the foreseeable future.

If you are so inclined, even if you were to ignore the economical, technological and industrial miracles, why not try to square how virtually every message from Western politicians or mass media on China has a negative spin, when meanwhile in all likelihood people in China are the happiest in the world, and trust their government more than any other nationality?

View attachment 5797

Is your short term memory failing?

I'd MUCH rather discuss politics - but somehow people like you and the snail can't stop making ad hominem remarks, and in your case with zero subject substance attached. Why is that?

Are you the snail's mother? Or are you ideologically opposed to my political arguments YET unable to identify any logical, factual argument against?

If you have nothing worthwhile to say, you don't have to say anything, you know.



I don't know what makes you fail to see which mass murderer you prefer to be your head of state is irrelevant to this debate.

Back to the subject of demonisation. Let's try a simple thought experiment - do you think Putin periodically and publicly calling Biden a demonstrable retard personally responsible for the murder of 25,000 children in broad daylight is conducive to world peace, or might it just nudge us a bit closer to WW3?



Think you have just proved that your view of China is seriously twisted, possibly due to the same Kool-Aid that says Russia was unprovoked and Israel is the victim... Not blaming you personally if you never got round to do your own investigation - most in the West are in exactly the same boat.

I haven't got time to give you counter arguments on every issue, and frankly IME confirmation bias meant there is no substitute for people fact finding for themselves, and to resolve counter-intuitive messages in their own mind. But this one is just simple data - in real terms China's investment in renewable energy exceeds the rest of the world combined, and this outperformance is expected to increase even more for the foreseeable future.

If you are so inclined, even if you were to ignore the economical, technological and industrial miracles, why not try to square how virtually every message from Western politicians or mass media on China has a negative spin, when meanwhile in all likelihood people in China are the happiest in the world, and trust their government more than any other nationality?

View attachment 5797

You are Dave Spart and I claim my £5.

 

[icowden]

If you are so inclined, even if you were to ignore the economical, technological and industrial miracles, why not try to square how virtually every message from Western politicians or mass media on China has a negative spin, when meanwhile in all likelihood people in China are the happiest in the world, and trust their government more than any other nationality?

Why in all likelihood? China has over half of all the Surveillance cameras in the world. News is suppressed. Citizens cannot access free media, the internet is monitored. Any information provided by China internationally has been cleansed or altered by the party. Ask a dissenter how happy they are in China. I forgot - you can't.

 

[the snail]

Why in all likelihood? China has over half of all the Surveillance cameras in the world. News is suppressed. Citizens cannot access free media, the internet is monitored. Any information provided by China internationally has been cleansed or altered by the party. Ask a dissenter how happy they are in China. I forgot - you can't.

The CCP want their people to be the happiest in the world, so if you aren't happy with them, they will send you for re-education, all expenses paid!

 

[farfromtheland]

Think you have just proved that your view of China is seriously twisted, possibly due to the same Kool-Aid that says Russia was unprovoked and Israel is the victim... Not blaming you personally if you never got round to do your own investigation - most in the West are in exactly the same boat.

I haven't got time to give you counter arguments on every issue, and frankly IME confirmation bias meant there is no substitute for people fact finding for themselves, and to resolve counter-intuitive messages in their own mind. But this one is just simple data - in real terms China's investment in renewable energy exceeds the rest of the world combined, and this outperformance is expected to increase even more for the foreseeable future.

If you are so inclined, even if you were to ignore the economical, technological and industrial miracles, why not try to square how virtually every message from Western politicians or mass media on China has a negative spin, when meanwhile in all likelihood people in China are the happiest in the world, and trust their government more than any other nationality?

I am not sure if you are disputing things I said about cultural suppression and abortion or just the renewable energy comments?

I think the one-child policy was enlightened but its enforcement was tragic. My views on Tibet come partly from talking to Nepalese friends and from broad reading. I did depend on mostly mainstream media for my comment about the Uyghur struggle. I feel fairly sure that these issues could have been managed far more positively, seen with or without the bias of western spin.

And, as I said, I had a Chinese housemate too. (She paid her own study expenses by winning a scholarship.) I don't dispute that there is much happiness in China.


Technologically speaking though, I preferred the Russian industrial model. Simple function is a good thing. China's economy grew by feeding the grossness of Western capitalism. I get the impression this was a delayed compensation for the extreme privation of the cultural revolution? Whether or no, I have a frugal bias and don't think exploitative mining is justified by the desire for the latest smartphone, wherever it roams. The production of stuff we don't need is the major mover of the climate crisis.

I praised China's current moves on greener energy to some extent, but it is happening 30 years too late. I really reckon if we can build a bottom-up democracy rather than any degree of oligarchy few people would vote to spend their time either toiling on ticky-tacky in Shenzen or panting over the mortgage in Londinium.


You didn't answer my question about Alexander Berkman!

 

[BoldonLad]

The secret is out https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68893196

 

[albion]

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/...resolution-reaffirming-ban-on-nukes-in-space/

There will be heavy fallout from this.

 

[albion]

The background history on the Georgian 'coup'.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/02/georgia-president-saakashvili-election-defeat

Georgia is niw brazenly moving towards rejoining a Russia Federation. I think Europe has a total nightmare on its hands if the US similarly gets Trump who looks far more aligned with Russia than Europe.